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So I am aware of the CES letter and have even gone to the web site and looked, but I didn’t really see anything new. But it was a bit of bam, bam, bam and if a TBM didn’t write it off as anti right away – it can be rather impactful. I may not have kept up with what Jeremy has been doing, but it does bring up a question of where the line is.
Is it that we can personally ask these questions, but never share them with another person? (OK – going a bit far for the illustration).
Can we post them online with our real names to try and get some answers? Is someone like Ray crossing the line just posting some of what he does on this web site? (IMO – no, as he is always respectful and more times than not he is often posting the most faith-promoting view on the site).
I know Jeremy has put up the web site, did a counter rebuttal to a FAIR response, and at least one interview on Mormon Stories. Does someone know anything more than these actions?
nibbler wrote:Rob4Hope wrote:Well, I want some answers.
Frankly I’d rather come up with my own answers. Looking to leaders (or Runnells or whoever) to supply me with the answers would deprive me of an opportunity to grow.
I wish I were where you are, Nibbler. I’m afraid I’m more with Rob4Hope here. I guess it all depends upon where you are in your faith transition, (and maybe your personality and tolerance for ambiguity).
I think JR’s questions started out as genuine, but as he didn’t obtain answers to those questions, he became more unbelieving and apostate. FAIR and other apologists have tried to answer the problems and questions put forth in the CES Letter, but most of their answers are not satisfactory to me, at least. I don’t feel like I have to come up with my own answers, but I do want to be able to see these problems and questions from a perspective that feels good (or at least ok) to me.
I’ve dealt with issues or questions that I don’t have good answers for in the past by placing them on the shelf, and just realizing that I don’t have a good explanation for them. That has mostly worked for me for years, but my shelf just cannot hold up anymore under the weight of all the things that just don’t make sense to me. I’m finding more and more things that I need to put on the shelf almost every day. I’m not even trying to find them or dwell on them, but they are everywhere!
What do people like me do, whose shelf has collapsed and we have no testimony to hold it up anymore?
😥 Rob4Hope wrote:DarkJedi wrote:
Well put, GBS, and I agree. There is absolutely nothing wrong with having questions such as those in the CES letter. Almost all of us here have at least some of those questions, and I believe the majority of members have wondered about many of them as well. It is not the questions – it’s what Runnells has done with them.Well, I want some answers.
So, excommunicate him and ignore answering the questions?
I think that’s why the church is where it is and why we are where we are. People wanted answers so leaders gave them – right or wrong, real or made up. As others have said, I’ve discovered it’s much better to have my own answers – which often are “I don’t know” and “It doesn’t matter.”
Excommunicating Runnells will not affect answers to the questions – they’re not going to be answered either way.
Quote:Well, I want some answers.
I’m resigned to never getting answers. However, it would be nice to hear something other than “We have the answers, but we’re not going to tell the membership.” (Not a direct quote) Perhaps this conference we’ll hear from an apostle, “Yes, Brigham taught the blood atonement, and people unjustly had their heads cut off. We don’t know why he did this.”
Quote:Perhaps this conference we’ll hear from an apostle, “Yes, Brigham taught the blood atonement, and people unjustly had their heads cut off. We don’t know why he did this.”
I’m pretty sure you will never hear something like that come from an apostle. Especially in GC.
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Ha! I know. I should have come up with a less extreme example. dtrom34 wrote:Ha! I know. I should have come up with a less extreme example.
I’d love to see it though!
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Yet in a sense excommunicating is working. Kind of like taking pawns off a chess board. As each person gets removed their ability to affect the general membership reduces. This serves the general membership well. I grew up during the time of September 6 rush, I never had heard of them until my own crisis. I was completely clueless. The same applies today. Even with the internet. From a leadership point of view this is just how to manage the flock.
mom3 wrote:Yet in a sense excommunicating is working. Kind of like taking pawns off a chess board. As each person gets removed their ability to affect the general membership reduces. This serves the general membership well. I grew up during the time of September 6 rush, I never had heard of them until my own crisis. I was completely clueless. The same applies today. Even with the internet.
From a leadership point of view this is just how to manage the flock.
I agree with this statement. It’s a smart move to excommunicate Jeremy. (This is coming from someone who sympathizes with Jeremy) I know people think it will expose more members to the ces letter, but the reality is that the CES letter will simply be rebranded as anti material created by an apostate, and most members will avoid it.
Runnels absolutely is an apostate now. There is no question of that in my mind. He is openly and actively fighting the Church, and I have never bought his argument that he really was open to answers in the letter. When he published it, he wasn’t looking for answers, and he has no interest in any answers now. I also don’t want answers. I love the search too much and believe too strongly in the concept and principle of on-going revelation.
We have had numerous threads about the purposes of excommunication. I don’t like it in most cases but support it in specific instances. This is one of them.
It’s official now. Jeremy Runnels is no longer a member. He resigned last night at his DC. http://www.sltrib.com/blogs/3791111-155/author-of-letter-to-a-ces Excommunication keeps me in check. We have all learned that if you are vocal in your concerns it leads to all kinds of negative consequences from leaders – including excommunication. But all it does is suppress behavior — it does not create inside-out, character-based change in me personally. It represents something to be avoided, managed, etcetera –an indication of what is acceptable behavior, and what is not acceptable behavior in the Mormon community. And when I see it used indiscrimminantly, or wrongly, it actually hurts the membership overall. It is another drop in the disillusionment bucket regarding leaders. It paints a picture of a church that can be harsh with its members. I have seen it be a good thing for people who like the church, but make mistakes (like adultery) and need a wake-up call. I have read posts by such individuals on certain websites. So, there is an individual benefit.
Where it hurts, in my view, is when they use excommunication as a way of punishing people who speak out about problems in the church. Armand Mauss has a lot to say about that in his memoirs.
SilentDawning wrote:I have seen it be a good thing for people who like the church, but make mistakes (like adultery) and need a wake-up call. I have read posts by such individuals on certain websites. So, there is an individual benefit.
The statistics for people that are exed and then come back to the church are just abysmal. I do not believe that excommunication helps most of the people in the situation that you are describing. Perhaps it has the side benefit of providing consequences for violating commandments. That might help keep the rest of the flock in line.
I also agree with the comments by Mom and Marty about excommunicating dissidents/apostates. It is still not a benefit to the person getting exed, but from the church perspective it is necessary boundary maintenance. Here at StayLDS we work to be able to set and maintain our own boundaries, I guess we can’t complain too loudly when the church does the same.
Roy wrote:I also agree with the comments by Mom and Marty about excommunicating dissidents/apostates. It is still not a benefit to the person getting exed, but from the church perspective it is necessary boundary maintenance. Here at StayLDS we work to be able to set and maintain our own boundaries, I guess we can’t complain too loudly when the church does the same.
I’d never thought of excommunication that way. Thanks, Roy for pointing that out.
As far as the disciplinary council related to the resignation go, we will never know the church’s side – and that’s as it should be. My guess is the resignation was moot because the council was held and the official record will show excommunication. Sort of a “You can’t fire me I quit” scenario – but they can indeed fire you. Sadly, like those who have recently gone before him, Runnells tried to make this a publicity circus and in truth very few really notice or care. If he really didn’t want to be a member, didn’t believe, and didn’t attend, why does he care if he was ex’ed and why didn’t he just resign a long time ago?
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