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I’d like to start a new discussion on ways to determine how best to spend a Sabbath Day. I think we’d all agree that the idea is to rest from daily labors and stresses of wordly things, and recharge our spiritual batteries and make it a holy day to worship God and realign our path with His will.
I will share this story from my grandma:
Since my grandpa was a stake president, the GA’s would stay in their home when visiting. One particular GA (I wish I could remember who it was) speficially told my grandma not to make dinner arrangements, they had that figured out. After Sunday Stake Conference, the GA took my grandparents to a nice restaurant in town. They were taken back, and asked if they should be doing that on Sunday? The GA simply replied, that he did not want to make my grandma break the sabbath by working and preparing a nice dinner on his account, that she should rest from her labors and enjoy the sabbath day, and the best way was to go out to eat so she could rest.
Since that time, I was raised in a home where eating out as a family occasionally on Sunday was perfectly acceptable, and my mother always told us that story to remind us.
It is interesting what “rest from your daily labors” means to some people, differing from others.
But is it important to create a list of Do’s and Don’ts? Or is it more a matter of heart?
For example, would you allow your son to play football on Sunday? Every week? What about one time on a tournament?
What about eating in a restaurant? What about on Mother’s Day?
What about skipping church and going on a nature walk instead?
What are some of the criteria you use to determine what is appropriate Sabbath Day Observance, or is it not really different than our other days when we just try to keep a heart close to God? What makes a “holy” day?
I’m way too much a fundamentalist in my habits for this kind of a discussion. Way too much. Sorry. My knee-jerk reaction to your GA story is, “How lame! File that under ‘More bad GA examples'”. That’s probably wrong, but I’m just being honest about the real Tom here. What about the fellows working at the restaurant? No rest for them? I don’t buy it. It makes zero sense. Still. At my age. We’re not all fishermen and farmers. And I live in California, not Utah, where the whole state shuts down on Sundays. I do my best, but I need to pay rent. I think other Christian denominations really adjusted well to modern occupations and needs when they opened service to weekdays. The variety of jobs in our country and time are quite different from 2,000 years ago. Anyone think we should adopt the Israeli week and put the Sabbath back to Saturday and let everyone have it off, then begin the week on Sunday? I actually like that sort of thinking. It seems to me it doesn’t really matter, except for community convenience and “to be seen of men” which day you chose to keep Shabbat or Sabbath. That’s probably a little extreme, but I’m okay with any person saying, “Tuesday will be my Sabbath this week.” I do tend to trust the words of Jesus, however, and Thomas’s Jesus said, “Unless you keep the Sabbath as Sabbath, you cannot see the Father.” Tom Haws wrote:I’m way too much a fundamentalist in my habits for this kind of a discussion. Way too much. Sorry.
Really? It seems to me I might be able to benefit from hearing your fundamentalist thoughts on this too. Its ok if you totally think I’m wrong in my line of thinking. I’m just more interested in knowing how you determine what is “holy” and some examples of how you put that into practice, and also, what blessings you think you get because of that. The answer “that’s just not right for Sunday” is too shallow for my benefit right now. But please, I respect your view and would like to hear.
Tom Haws wrote:My knee-jerk reaction to your GA story is, “How lame! File that under ‘More bad GA examples'”. That’s probably wrong, but I’m just being honest about the real Tom here. What about the fellows working at the restaurant? No rest for them? I don’t buy it. It makes zero sense. Still. At my age.
I dunno. It was something that really meant a lot to my mom who always had issues with the men running the church and the women just being servants to prepare meals and stuff, so it really impressed her to see a priesthood leader willing to send a caring message…maybe that could’ve been done better by the men cooking or something…who knows, but again, it goes to how differently people view or interpret Sabbath day stuff.Regarding restaurant workers, I don’t buy that argument. They either can close their restaurant and have a day of rest (like Chick-fil-A) or stay open and work that day…but it is not the patrons fault for “making” them work, IMO. I have often heard store owners in Utah say they really wish people would not shop on Sunday because it prevents them from closing their doors and keeping the Sabbath Holy. To me, that is like the dairy farmer telling his cows to stop making milk on Sunday so he can sleep in and keep the Sabbath Day Holy.
Besides, are boycotting Sundays really going to make a difference when the other religions don’t adhere to this? Can I choose for my wife to have a day of rest from cooking when the cook in the restaurant is working anyway, whether we go there or not?
spacious maze wrote:Anyone think we should adopt the Israeli week and put the Sabbath back to Saturday and let everyone have it off, then begin the week on Sunday?
I kind of like the Christian Sunday Sabbath tied to the resurrection.I tend to agree with Tom. My going to a restaurant on Sunday is not, in itself, a bad thing but it supports and causes someone else to have to work that day.
Many years ago I worked at a cabinet shop owned by Seventh Day Adventists…great folks by the way. They did everything they could to be home..showered…meals prepared…etc. by Friday night at dark. Their Sabbath, of course lasted until Saturday night at dark. As you can imagine, they lost a lot of money in the building industry by not being available on Friday evenings or Saturdays. It was admirable, IMHO, to see them give that up for their beliefs.
I try to always thing about them when I’m tempted to go fishing, watch “gentile” television programs, etc.
Having said all that…I start a new job on Monday and I’ll probably have to work Sundays for awhile…
I remember years where I had a calling that in effect became more of a Sunday job (something I dreaded), than a day of rest. And all of those weekends that maybe should have been spent with my wife and children in someplace wonderful, were always cut short by the drop-dead requirement of being in a chapel somewhere.
Maybe some future interview with God might contain the question “What were you thinking!”
I’m cool with three hours a week set aside as an organizational Sabbath. I’m fine with nature walks and fishing and reading and a picnic at the park and a drive through the country ad infinitum– and even television on Sunday, as long as it constitutes for me “resting from the cares of the world” – or “getting in touch with God” – or “bonding with my family” – or something similar. I have NO problem with the principle of not causing others to work on the Sabbath, but this is a great case where there are so many potential hedges about the law that it can be easy to lose sight of the law.
Tom Haws wrote:That’s probably wrong, but I’m just being honest about the real Tom here. What about the fellows working at the restaurant? No rest for them? I don’t buy it. It makes zero sense. Still. At my age.
Let’s say that–hypothetically–working on Sunday is bad/sinful/breaking the sabbath. First off, what is “work”? Are Church leaders that spend all Sunday away from their wife ‘and kids “working”? If it is okay for Church related work to be performed on the sabbath, that is the perfect loop hole. We can have Bishop’s and Stake Presidents work like pack mules, but it’s not actually work, so it’s cool (assuming most people believe Church related work isn’t “work”).
Secondly, what about Church owned companies that stay open on Sunday? KSL not only stays open on Sunday, but it broadcasts content that if watched causes one to “break” the sabbath. I know, Bonneville Corporation owns KSL, and it has a board of directors that make decisions, but if the President of the Church decided he didn’t want the Church to be hypocritical, he could let Bonneville know that KSL would no longer broadcast on Sunday. My point is that the Church has plenty of influence/interaction with business that takes place on Sunday; is that “breaking” the sabbath? The Church’s business with the “world” certainly causes some people to work on Sunday.
How do we determine what is okay and isn’t okay about working on Sunday? I think everyone would agree that we need police, firefighters, EMT’s, and hospitals to still function on Sunday; what criteria make a job an okay Sunday job?
Sabbath day observance is archaic, it’s a relic, and it has no place in the modern world. If someone wants to “observe” the sabbath, more power to them, but it isn’t sinful or bad in any way to spend Sunday like any other day. If I’m wrong, how am I wrong?
I agree with wordsleuth that the concept of using the actual secular calendar day called Sunday in the modern world is pretty silly. But, I love Ray’s concept of disconnecting from that same modern world, to reconnect to something more “primitive” maybe. Getting in touch with the “earth”, nature, leaving society, etc. We actually decided to try to do the primitive thing: no electronic media, no contact with the “connected” world, essentially doing the “Into the Wild” or “Walden Pond” thing, but just in our house on Sundays. I know, it sounds silly and we haven’t been very consistent but we like it and will try to keep doing it.
btw, I mentioned this months ago but just want to mention it again; the book, movie, soundtrack combo for “Into the Wild” is the best ever. Hands down. I dare you to test me on that one.
Quote:Sabbath day observance is archaic, it’s a relic, and it has no place in the modern world. If someone wants to “observe” the sabbath, more power to them, but it isn’t sinful or bad in any way to spend Sunday like any other day. If I’m wrong, how am I wrong?
We disagree almost totally on this one. I believe that everyone needs a chance to slow down, step back, rest, recuperate, contemplate the cosmos or their own personal progress, separate, “be still”, recharge, etc. on a regular basis. I have seen WAY too many people burn out over the years because they failed to do so – and that is just as true of the over-zealous Bishop as it is of the non-stop party person and the workaholic. I believe serving others (ministering) can be energizing, but the administrative tasks of leadership also can be draining. I don’t think spending all day Sunday working is “observing the Sabbath” – even if that work is church-related.
I also believe anyone who believes in a community of God and believers, in some way or another, needs a chance to congregate and mutually reinforce – and a formalized Sabbath accomplishes that as well as anything I can imagine.
I don’t totally disagree with what you’ve just said Ray, but you miss my point. My point is that “recharging” one’s batteries by going out to eat, to a movie, boating, to a football/baseball game, isn’t sinful/bad. I’m not saying or implying that working on Sunday is ideal, but those that choose to or that have to aren’t being sinful. What is archaic is the orthodox Mormon day–spend it in meetings, and then spend the rest of the day avoiding interaction with the “world”. For those that find joy in the orthodox Mormon view of Sunday, great, but having “worldy” fun on Sunday isn’t bad, it is often one of the best ways to spend quality family time/recharge batteries/re-energize for the week. All good comments and all beneficial for my understanding. I think this is the purpose of why I started this thread. Ray’s points are all well stated and I think very true on the need for the Sabbath. Wordsleuth and others also state thoughts I think are valid. My interest is how to take the overarching theme of “recharge”, “reconnect”, “recalibrate” and how that equates to hour by hour activity choices acceptable to one’s conscience. Tom and Bruce seem to hold the day as a “Holy” day, in my words as I understand them, it is to worship God and avoid offending Him, and to focus on being holy in our hearts. Wordsleuth and swim and Timp are suggesting that rest is whatever is restful for the person, and that work is a reality of life and not sinful.
I like Ronald Dart’s points on this subject:
Quote:Six days of the week belong to us, but the seventh day belongs to God.
Not only are we to keep in mind that the Sabbath day does not belong to us, and to avoid any work on that day, we are not to require work of others:
“…thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates. “
Does this mean you stop the boy from delivering your paper on the Sabbath day? No, he doesn’t work for you. In most cases he is self-employed and makes his own decisions about when to work and when to take off. The commandment forbids you to require work of anyone who is under your control. Notice the use of the possessive: thy servant, thy daughter, even thy stranger. The commandment is to you and has to do with what you do and what you require. It does not call on you to prevent work by others, nor does it prevent you from benefiting from the labors of those who decide to work. Otherwise, you would have to avoid even the use of electricity on the Sabbath.
http://www.biblestudy.org/godsrest/what-does-it-mean-to-keep-the-sabbath.html ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://www.biblestudy.org/godsrest/what-does-it-mean-to-keep-the-sabbath.html Once again, I believe the Lord looks upon the heart and it is the intent of our heart that makes the day holy, and restful from the other 6 days, and recharging based on the choices you are making amid personal circumstances. The other good point is how you approach the sabbath with preparations. Are you making “Saturday a special day, the day we get ready for Sunday”? That is important to the approach of the Sabbath when you are working the other days to prepare for it.
All good intentions can be taken to extremes, as Ray pointed out even for well intentioned, over-zealous church leaders, and equally out of balance is the lazy sloth wanting to “rest” all day. With this in mind, it still is interesting to me to think of that GA teaching my grandma to think of the Sabbath differently, and how much I think most others would agree with Tom that what the GA did was just wrong. (Tom, I respect you for that…hope you don’t mind me referencing your view as one side of the coin…but you were pretty clear on your view of it…again, which is fine with me…and worthwhile in the discussion).
Heber13 wrote:Regarding restaurant workers, I don’t buy that argument.
wordsleuth23 wrote:Secondly, what about Church owned companies that stay open on Sunday? KSL not only stays open on Sunday, but it broadcasts content that if watched causes one to “break” the sabbath.
I really, really don’t want to get in touch here with my inner fundamentalist. Both of you fellows have impeccable logic, toward which I will nod before just going back into mystic mode and saying, “The Church is neither black nor white.” and “
No spiritual practice is mandatory.” The general authorities and the church may be the opposite of the example we need in any given instance, and yet when it all comes to the bottom line, the Sabbath isn’t worth arguing about. If we want the spiritual benefit of keeping a sabbath, there may be optimal ways to do that, but it’s not helpful to consider it a “law”, in my humble opinion. Now, I realize that here we (gratefully!) don’t really argue in the MAAD sense. And I realize Heber wants to see the perspective of my fundamentalist observance. So I’ll do my best. Here’s the catechism we gave our children in the old days.
“Do we go to Taco Bell on Sunday? No.”
“Do we go swimming on Sunday? No.”
“Do we watch TV and movies on Sunday? No.”
“Do we shop at the store on Sunday? No.”
“Do we play rough on Sunday? No.”
Now a word about my youth. I always felt Sabbath Day observance was a great blessing to me. I was probably in some measure arrogant and proud. But I also knew my Monday mornings were wonderful, and I looked forward to serene music and reading and sermons and choir practice and rest on Sunday. And Sunday became, for me, a homebody day. And to this day, I like that. I like staying cloistered one day a week.
Tom
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