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Preface: before church yesterday, DH asked me if the kids have paid their tithing. (We didn’t do tithing settlement last month. I think I might be getting through to my somewhat TBM husband; he agreed that it was silly to rearrange our schedules for a ten minute meeting with the bishop that has no doctrinal basis.) I told him I haven’t done it recently, though I’m sure there are tithing envelopes floating around somewhere. (Truly, there are few things more annoying than trying to scrounge up enough dimes so that you can pay your five-year-old her dollar-a-week allowance. Especially since ATMs will only give you twenties. 😆 ) He reiterated that it should be done and I mentioned that sinceheis the ‘head of the household,’ maybe hecan be responsible for the kids’ dimes/eternal salvation. 
And just to prove that the Lord has a sense of humor, the Sacrament meeting theme was ‘tithing.’
Since reading this forum I’ve thought more about tithing in the last few months than I ever did in the previous 30+ years of my life. It seems to be a pretty big sticking point for a lot of us, I think because we’ve got the spiritual and the temporal pretty severely conflated. Also because a lot of things are passed around as fact when there is no doctrinal basis. So my eyes were definitely open – and I heard a lot of the same things that have been said over and over about tithing. To be fair, no one cited the “tithing is 10 percent of gross” “fact” and one brother even mentioned the fact that our method of calculation is up to us and not anyone else.
On the other hand, one faithful sister related a story of choosing to pay tithing over rent when she only had enough money for one or the other. She was then ‘rewarded’ by receiving an unexpected bonus at work before her rent was due. I’m sure that was a lovely and faith-promoting experience for that sister, but I am really uncomfortable with those kind of stories being associated with the ‘law of tithing’ (that is a whole side rant for another day
😆 ). One of the speakers told a story of a man who was blinded by molten lead in a foundry explosion. This being the Depression, he couldn’t find work (it’s not clear why he still owed tithing, being unemployed?) and finally in order to pay their tithing, his family pawned the one thing they had of value – his wife’s engagement ring. Upon leaving the bishop’s office after paying his ‘back’ tithing, the blind man ran into the stake president, who was an eye doctor of some note. The stake president was able to examine the man’s eyes, and eventually was able to restore most of his sight, allowing him to work again. My question, of course, is where was Eye Doctor Stake Presidentbefore? Presumably his amazing eye-doctorin’ credentials didn’t suddenly spring into existence the moment that Blind Man hocked his wife’s engagement ring to pay his tithing. Several speakers mentioned that our tithing funds are used for ‘education.’ I assume that they are referring to the generous BYU subsidy – which, as a person who has never attended BYU, REALLY sticks in my craw. To the point that I have sometimes considered leaving the Church over it (don’t worry, I didn’t). But I have a really, REALY hard time telling my children that their dimes are needed to subsidize the college education of their cousins – my BIL ‘married money’ and his children are literally million-dollar trust-fund children. They are guaranteed admission to BYU, since the family makes very large alumni contributions, and my children, whose chances of being admitted to BYU are pretty slim (they are smart kids but it’s a numbers game) are literally giving their widow’s mites to provide discounted college tuition for their filthy rich cousins.
I wish that we could stop passing around nuggets like ‘it’s the Lord’s money; we don’t get to ask what He does with it’ (that is a surefire recipe for financial abuses by leaders) or ‘the Lord has given us all that we have; he only asks for ten percent back’ (I work hard for my money and I don’t appreciate being told that my contribution is nothing). I wish that we could be honest about our tithing and say that sometimes we pay ten percent and get nothing in return – no ‘windows of heaven’ yadda yadda. I really wish that we could separate the
temporalprinciple of the Church needing money to operate from the spiritualprinciple of obedience and I dearly wish that we didn’t have so everlasting much superstitionassociated with our ten percent. I agree with you and your wishes. I think the truth is that if tithing wasn’t made to seem like it provided miracles and if people weren’t guilted into paying because they’re told it’s a commandment, and if it didn’t affect TR status, far fewer people would pay or they would pay amounts similar to what people pay in the collection plate at other churches. The myths have to be perpetrated in order to maintain the income. Personally, I have no problems with tithing being used to build and maintain buildings with no debt and I don’t even have a problem with it subsidizing BYU (disclaimer: I have a BYU grad, a student on missionary leave, and a son applying now) because I see that much the same way as taxes which I have no say in – that is, I pay for kids who don’t even want to be there and in some cases endanger my own kids and in many cases inhibit the education of my kids. At least at BYU they had to work to get there. (Second disclaimer: our kids do not have trust funds and we can only help them pay tuition, housing, etc., we can’t pay it all.) But as you said, I would like it if people were just more honest about it and it didn’t have to be connected to any myth. If the opportunity ever presents itself, I simply tell people I pay tithing because I want to, and I don’t expect any more benefit than an occasional free dinner at church, although I do appreciate that my children have been able to get a high quality education for less than SUNY tuition. I had an interesting conversation at church last Sunday. The subject of tithing was touched on and the person I was talking to brought up that aspect of tithing, namely that tithing should be paid first. I was going to say something but I ended up just listening to their perspective. In a nutshell: The insistence on paying tithing first was to make sure the member could attain the blessings that the lord wanted to give them, blessings that can
onlycome from paying tithing… and the church was there if you didn’t have enough to meet your obligations. It was presented as a win-win. Receive the blessings and have your needs met. I felt the absolute sincerity of the statement, so it resonated a bit. The person that made the comment didn’t have a desire to create dependence on the church or a desire to meddle in people’s financial affairs, they truly believed that a person would receive more blessings through paying tithing. It’s hard to knock someone when their intention is to help others attain blessings. Sure intentions can be misplaced but I can still feel the love behind them. Joni wrote:I wish that we could stop passing around nuggets like ‘it’s the Lord’s money; we don’t get to ask what He does with it’
To that I would respond: I very much want to know what the lord does with his money. Perhaps that would help me get to know him better… and yes “What are they hiding?” is almost a reflex when someone makes that kind of statement.
I don’t want to start an argument about the BYU subsidy (there was an interesting post about it last summer on BCC) but the one thing I have to say is, I don’t like the fact that if I choose not to subsidize BYU by not paying tithing, I’m giving up the opportunity to attend the temple. It’s different from taxes; quit paying taxes and you can go to jail, but it’s about what you do, not who you are. Quit paying tithing and the Lord literally looks at you and says, “You are not worthy to enter into My house.” At least, that is what we are taught. I think we’ve really made a mess of things, the way we conflate tithing with worthiness. I think we should teach it as a temporal principle, period.
Joni wrote:On the other hand, one faithful sister related a story of choosing to pay tithing over rent when she only had enough money for one or the other. She was then ‘rewarded’ by receiving an unexpected bonus at work before her rent was due. I’m sure that was a lovely and faith-promoting experience for that sister, but I am really uncomfortable with those kind of stories being associated with the ‘law of tithing’
I’ve made the decision to pay tithing instead of being responsible and pay a bill, depending on the Lord to send magic checks, and fell flat on my face a few times. In fact, during a time when I was the most devout about paying tithing, our financial situation got worse and worse. For some reason, nobody passes on my story in lessons about tithing. Strange…
🙂 I’m not saying that paying tithing is wrong. People should pay tithing if they want to, and I know many people who are spiritually blessed by this practice. I accept that. It wasn’t my experience. That’s all.
I have felt more motivation about Fast Offerings. At least those moneys are more directly connected to taking care of the poor and needy. And I would also like to spend more time someday volunteering at the Bishops Storehouse. That was always very rewarding to me, personally.
I have no problem with people paying tithing for whatever reason works for them. I pay a full tithe without any concerns or angst – but I also have been helped with Fast Offering assistance in times of need. More to the title of this post, I personally think tithing isn’t a good Sacrament Meeting topic – unless it’s mentioned in passing as an aspect of sacrifice as part of meaningful worship. SM is supposed to be a worship service, and one of my pet peeves is having topics in that meeting that have nothing to do with worship.
Last May, I wrote the following on my personal blog – last summer and back in 2008:
“
The Purest and Simplest Way to Make Sacrament Meeting a True Worship Service and a Revelatory Experience” ( http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2013/05/the-purest-and-simplest-way-to-make.html “
Finding Purpose and Growth in Church Meetings” ( http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2008/11/finding-purpose-and-growth-in-church.html Joni wrote:I wish that we could be honest about our tithing and say that sometimes we pay ten percent and get nothing in return
That’s a great point, Joni, and something I wish pervaded our culture of self-sacrifice a little more. It’s not a sacrifice if you expect something in return. Too often, in our culture, we are taught to do something good because God will bless us. Yet, the sweetest tasting reward is the feeling of helping someone who cannot repay you.On Own Now wrote:Joni wrote:I wish that we could be honest about our tithing and say that sometimes we pay ten percent and get nothing in return
That’s a great point, Joni, and something I wish pervaded our culture of self-sacrifice a little more. It’s not a sacrifice if you expect something in return. Too often, in our culture, we are taught to do something good because God will bless us. Yet, the sweetest tasting reward is the feeling of helping someone who cannot repay you.Which, for me, the principle/concept of doing work for dead ancestors in the temple is so good. It’s service without even a thank you from the recipient.
Joni wrote:I wish that we could be honest about our tithing and say that sometimes we pay ten percent and get nothing in return – no ‘windows of heaven’ yadda yadda. I really wish that we could separate the temporal principle of the Church needing money to operate from the spiritual principle of obedience and I dearly wish that we didn’t have so everlasting much superstition associated with our ten percent.
I particularly liked this sentiment. I would love to hear about people – living, loving, building, and struggling – without any magical “and they all lived happily ever after.”
Sometimes people do live happily ever after – sometimes they don’t.
In a way – our church is selling certain expectations. This can be a great thing. These expectations can give us a sense of purpose and confidence as we take on the world. But it is also a double edged sword. Sometimes peoples lives do not match the expectations. Sometimes the very expectations themselves lead them to do foolish things. Yet, how do we reallign expectations without watering down our expectation message. Our church is built on a historical BOM, a “one true church”, and a Prophet is never wrong model.
I remember having gone through several years of family therapy because of these things. It took a lot longer then it should have because we had lived a life time of over the top expectations set forth by these stories that not only we but no human ever could love up to. The result was a lifetime of contention and stress of trying to live up to them… Feeling worthless afterward and self chastisement to match the chastisement of not living into these impossible expectations. It caused my whole family content stress and contention trying to match those. When confronted by the psychologist about the unrealistic expectation and the damage they were causing… My mother wouldn’t let it go, wouldn’t see it, argued with the therapist over it, quit the therapist over it and went to another until she would find one that would agree with the her and the church and those expectations. Out of a few dozen she did this to we found none willing to see this as productive or agree with. It has a long history of causing more harm then good and massive set up for failure. It’s not emotionally healthy at all and balanced stories or counter stories need to be presented to reign in the unrealistic expectations these stories set.
If not it is best they get thrown out entirely rather then suffer the pretty severe consequences that will usually follow with depression and anxiety (which is natural and normal if you take stores like these seriously and most people I know do).
It is ultimately up to the rest of us to represent a more balanced and healthy view to counteract the negative consequences of these stories. We cannot count on others doing it. We each have a responsibility to help protect others from developing unhealthy attitudes that result from these stores inside and outside church.
It’s completely unacceptable as is and needs to stop one way or the other to have a balanced and healthy approach.
I love this discussion! I have my own experiences and thoughts that are in line with most of the thoughts here. I am a life long member who has begun to question tithing. Not the principle itself, but the church’s application of it. I love tithing and feel it is given to us by the lord for our benefit. Just like every other commandment that is given.
I believe another posted stated their objection to the tying of tithing to the temple recommend. I am with you! Let me explain.
I have paid most of my life a full and honest tithe. 4 years ago, my wife developed anorexia, a very deadly and damaging disease. I dropped everything to help her and to get her the treatment she needed. I have spent more than 50K out of pocket for medical and dental to treat her. She has made some improvement, but the disease persists. It is a nasty disease of the mind that destroys the body and soul. We have 5 kids, and all was relativly well up to that point, and we paid a full tithe.
After having to shell out the 10s of thousands for treatment, I had to stop tithing. The debt came racking up. I was able to curb it with monies that would have been tithes. Still in debt because of it, but with a new higher paying job have been able to start paying it down. Because of the early debt, not enough to put tithing in the budget. Plus I still pay for treatment currently. I got this higher paying job without tithing, but would not that have made a great sacrament story if I was
😆 🙂 Bishop’s questions after telling him I had to stop tithing: Can your wife get a job? (Duh, no she is sick, plus minimum wage would not even pay our tithe, we live in the SF bay area, higher income, but much higher costs) Can you get a second job since you can demand a high wage (uh no, I have an anorexic wife with 5 kids to take care of, I can barely keep my job). Your job furloghed you, you take home a bit less, you tithe can be less now, can you afford that (come on bishop are you serious???).
This to me creates a hugh problem tying tithes to temple blessings. I stayed with my wife, commited to get her well at all costs, but I am not worthy to go to the temple? So if I abandoned my wife and kids (like my dad did I might add and he has a TR) I could afford to tithe so I am worthy now? Or, I could have not convinced her to get treatment becuase that would jepordize tithing. I am worthy now? (She did not want treatment, I convinced her it was necessary, knowing full well the financial commitment) She would have died without treatment. I believe that my actions are some of the most Christlike I have done, don’t get me wrong I am not perfect or holyer than the next man. However, church policy does not agree. No temple blessings for me. Wow,is all I can say. I have given my life to this church, like many, my best early years also.
My mother is sympathetic to me saying that this my decisions are right and valient, more than others she has seen that are allow to keep their TR. She is struggling with this too as she sees my situation. However, my wife’s family says it is becuase we do not tithe! (wow, so that tithing I did while she became ill and while I was paying for treatment in the beginning was not enough for you or the lord for blessings?) I love the tithe and hope I can pay again some day, but yes I completely agree with the sentimates of some that say it should not be tied to the TR.
Also, along with the exact topic of this thread. Totally agree. I would love to never hear another sacrament talk about tithing again, or a GC talk as well. They are totally recycled and tend to use like 5 recyceled positive tithing stories.
Quote:It is ultimately up to the rest of us to represent a more balanced and healthy view to counteract the negative consequences of these stories.
Even though I understand the unrealistic expectations miraculous stories can create, I also understand they are reality for many people – and by that I simply mean those people truly believe them. They are being completely honest when they share them. Therefore, I don’t mind them being shared – but, as has been mentioned, I want more of a balance.
It is this reason that drives me to share my own experiences with unemployment and financial difficulty – to let people know that the miraculous doesn’t happen always – to let people know that they might not be blessed financially, and especially miraculously, if they pay tithing. I represent the too often unsaid side of this issue, so I share my own experiences to even the scale within my own sphere of influence.
I do it gently and not angrily, and I never dismiss or belittle what others say – and I generally start by saying something like, “I respect that and am grateful God gave you that blessing, but . . .” That makes all the difference in the world.
pdigity, Welcome, and thanks for adding your voice to the dialog. I hope all is well with you and your family. I think many here who continue to pay tithing have come to think of it as a commitment between the payer and God, not between the payer and the Church. Thanks for being the kind of person that can see right and act on it. I wish you, your wife, your kids and your mom well.
pdigitty wrote:This to me creates a hugh problem tying tithes to temple blessings. I stayed with my wife, commited to get her well at all costs, but I am not worthy to go to the temple? So if I abandoned my wife and kids (like my dad did I might add and he has a TR) I could afford to tithe so I am worthy now? Or, I could have not convinced her to get treatment becuase that would jepordize tithing. I am worthy now? (She did not want treatment, I convinced her it was necessary, knowing full well the financial commitment) She would have died without treatment. I believe that my actions are some of the most Christlike I have done, don’t get me wrong I am not perfect or holyer than the next man. However, church policy does not agree. No temple blessings for me. Wow,is all I can say. I have given my life to this church, like many, my best early years also.
Wow, indeed. My hat is off to you, and, no, you do not come across as “holier than thou.”
I hope you’re able to find a way through and past all this. Glad you’re here, and best wishes to your family.
I have not paid tithing in 3 years. My world did not collapse. Tying tithing to any kind if beneficial outcome especially financial is disingenuous. All evidence is anecdotal. Personally I would be more inclined to pay some tithing if the church was just honest. Just ask for the money because they need it to keep the church running. Quit making extravagant claims about the blessings involved. Do not tell the lie that the Lords church does not need your money which is a crock.
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