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Joseph Smith was quoted as saying “A religion that doesn’t require the sacrifice of all things can’t produce faith sufficient for salvation” (or something similar to that). I see a lot of discussion on these forums is about unwillingness, and sometimes, even resentment about being asked to sacrifice things that are important to us — like your money, our time, sometimes even our sense of reason, etcetera. I see it partly as the root of the problems many of us face in our Church membership — we sometimes hit a wall where we feel that we are being asked to sacrifice too much, and question whether such sacrifices are even necessary.
What role does the expectation of large sacrifice have on your activity in the Church, and how do you remain an active, positive member when the sacrifices seem like they are too much?
SilentDawning wrote:Joseph Smith was quoted as saying “A religion that doesn’t require the sacrifice of all things can’t produce faith sufficient for salvation” (or something similar to that).
I see a lot of discussion on these forums is about unwillingness, and sometimes, even resentment about being asked to sacrifice things that are important to us — like your money, our time, sometimes even our sense of reason, etcetera. I see it partly as the root of the problems many of us face in our Church membership — we sometimes hit a wall where we feel that we are being asked to sacrifice too much, and question whether such sacrifices are even necessary.
If the sacrifice of all things is really required for salvation then I can’t imagine that very many people will ever be saved including the majority of Mormons. If that’s the case, then most of us might as well just give up before we waste too much time and effort in a lost cause (Luke 14:28-32). Just because Joseph Smith liked the sound of this assertion doesn’t mean it is very practical. He was also tinkering around with various radical ideas along these lines such as consecration and polygamy but these same ideas failed in practice.
I don’t really have a problem with the general idea of sacrifice as long as there is a good reason for it but I’m just not convinced that saying we need to do all this just because some old men in a position of authority said so or just because that’s what we have always done is really a very good reason. Personally, I think that some of the unreasonable demands the Church continues to make will mostly just push too many members over the edge into a state of open rebellion or unbelief for no good reason.
It follows quite closely the idea that Jesus of Nazareth articulated to the rich young man: Quote:“Sell all that thou hast and follow me.”
This isn’t something that Joseph pulled out of his butt.
Now, I agree with Cadence that such a standard is bound to fail on the large scale just because few really are ready to accept it, but I have no problem with the general principle involved that says we will get what we want of supreme value only if we are willing to sacrifice something else of significant worth for it. I think this is true especially if we define “save” as more than just rest and relaxation in the afterlife – if we include radical change in the mortal here and now, as well.
SilentDawning wrote:I see a lot of discussion on these forums is about unwillingness, and sometimes, even resentment about being asked to sacrifice things that are important to us — like your money, our time, sometimes even our sense of reason, etcetera.
SilentDawning, in my experience, it is not that I am asked to sacrifice that is a problem for me, it is sometimes how to reconcile
what to sacrificethat I try to figure out for myself. Going along with Pres Uchtdorf…(to quote him again)…
Quote:there are so many “shoulds” and “should nots” that merely keeping track of them can be a challenge. Sometimes, well-meaning amplifications of divine principles—many coming from uninspired sources—complicate matters further, diluting the purity of divine truth with man-made addenda.
-Pres Uchtdorf
My leaders ask me to sacrifice time from my family to serve in the Priesthood and attend meetings, but then tell me that nothing should be of greater importance for me to sacrifice for than my family. So which is it? Time with my family or not time with my family? Magnify my calling more or be at home more?
Or perhaps money is what we are to sacrifice for the good of the kingdom, but they also don’t want me to spend my own money on youth activities but stay within budgets so we don’t burden families so they are not asked to sacrifice too much money for church things. Are we supposed to sacrifice all or not sacrifice all?
I need to develop unselfishness by being willing to sacrifice (and I agree with your Joseph Smith quote the power of the religion is how to get me to do it). That is the principle.
How it is doneand how I can put my heart into it so it meets the objective of helping me develop Christ-like attributes is what I discuss on this forum. Old-Timer wrote:It follows quite closely the idea that Jesus of Nazareth articulated to the rich young man:
Quote:“Sell all that thou hast and follow me.”
I’m not convinced this was a general prescription of everyone though. Could it be that the rich man had his heart too set on his riches? That this advice was for the rich man?
Old-Timer wrote:
Now, I agree with Cadence that such a standard is bound to fail on the large scale just because few really are ready to accept it, but I have no problem with the general principle involved that says we will get what we want of supreme value only if we are willing to sacrifice something else of significant worth for it. I think this is true especially if we define “save” as more than just rest and relaxation in the afterlife – if we include radical change in the mortal here and now, as well.I must be getting on your nerves Ray. You are giving me credit for comments I did not post.
Yeah, that was devil’s advocate. Bad fingers!!
😆 I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately. When I was living in the community, I had no independence of action at all, so I felt like God must be very pleased with me because I was sacrificing my will, my desires, my personal preferences and feelings in order to serve others. But in the long run, I felt like it was enforced and not natural. But it was very satisfying because it gave me a clean conscience, serving others night and day. The problem I’m now having with my desire to return to the LDS Church is that I’m afraid it may not require enough self-sacrifice. I have been so “brainwashed” by the community to believe that the self-sacrifice and renunciation required by God and exhibited by Christ is so total that there should be NO room for selfish desire at all. In the community, I was constantly engaged in serving others without thinking about my own needs/desires. Now, I have all this free time and feel confused and guilty about how I’m spending my time and how I am using my money.
I’m also wondering how it is possible to lead a selfless life in the world when you have to spend most of your time trying to make a living for yourself. In the community, this was not an issue. Everyone was focused on meeting their neighbor’s needs. It seems like it was a lot easier to live the gospel in community. I am feeling a little discouraged about my ability to maintain the same standard as a member of the LDS Church, even though there is more support than other churches, it is still not 24/7.
Quote:it is still not 24/7
It shouldn’t be, imo. Period.
Think of this:
Even Jesus’ ministry constituted only a “tithe” of his previous life. For thirty years, he pursued his own life – whatever that was. After thirty years, he “laid down his life for his friends” and began his ministry, which lasted for three years – exactly 1/10 of his previous life.
I am NOT making any statement with this other than to point out the following: Even the person whom we call the Savior and Redeemer of the world was NOT expected to live completely selflessly in service to others for his entire life. Please try not to hold yourself to a standard Jesus of Nazareth didn’t have to live.
kira wrote:I’m also wondering how it is possible to lead a selfless life in the world when you have to spend most of your time trying to make a living for yourself. In the community, this was not an issue. Everyone was focused on meeting their neighbor’s needs. It seems like it was a lot easier to live the gospel in community. I am feeling a little discouraged about my ability to maintain the same standard as a member of the LDS Church, even though there is more support than other churches, it is still not 24/7.
What you say sounds a bit like what I experienced as a full time missionary. As a FT missionary you spend 24/7 thinking about missionary work, except 8 hours on preparation day. It creates a super-nova of spirituality once you get into the rhythmn of it.
Then you come home — and you’re faced with serving others AND earning a living. On that note — I think it takes a higher level of spirituality to have to decide between competing priorities all the time — by figuring out how to earn a living, and give enough time to spirituality and service at the same time. As a missionary, with a single-minded gospel focus 24/7 for two years, there were temporary structures around me (a white handbook of rules, zone meetings, district meetings, and a mission president) — all supporting me externally in being spiritual. There were also strong social norms that if I went home early, or got sent home for breaking rules that I’d be something less of a righteous person, or have a lifelong stigma. So, I was surrounded with extrinsic motivators for being spiritual, along with my own set of intrinsic motivators. Granted, I chose that situation, but still, the single-minded focus on other people was partly sustained by all these external helps.
When I got home, I had to figure out how to maintain spirituality amidst competing priorities. And most of the motivation had to be intrinsic as I no longer had the white handbook, money in the bank to support my daily needs, a mission president, distance from home, etcetera, to keep me focused. And I was already a “returned missionary” so the social stigma of not serving faithfully was gone…. So, you might look at your life in the LDS Church as an opportunity to achieve the spirituality you’re seeking amidst the more challenging situation of competing priorities.
Sure, you’re going to goof up at times — but that’s the realistic challenge of being a member of the Church.
Also, you can bring a spirituality to your work, by the way. I’m a teacher, and I can just show up and teach my classes and then leave, or I can go to my classes with a view to loving the students, connecting with them on a personal level, and giving really high levels of service for its own sake, even when the dollars aren’t there to justify it. I do that at times and it feels good.
You can view your day to day work with the same higher purpose as you did in your community. Just as your neighbours served you with their labor, your “customers” or supervisors are serving you with their payment of wages, and in return, you serve them with high levels of performance.
SilentDawning, Thank you so much for sharing this with me!! I could really relate to what you wrote about external helps being conducive to spiritual progress. It was comforting to hear that my struggle isn’t unique, and that there is a way to integrate spirituality into my day-to-day life in the world. I also appreciated learning that it is time for me to grow up and stop relying solely upon externals (environment, authoritative controls and social support) for my faith. I am starting to see the importance of taking responsibility for my own growth instead of seeking constant direction and help from others. I used to think that I could never fulfill God’s will apart from an authoritative environment. I’ve perceived my agency and will as being so fallen that I NEED to live in an environment where I am held accountable for my actions, as it is far too easy for me to choose “self” over love and sacrifice. Even with regard to my membership in the LDS Church, when I wanted to return to a life of sense gratification, I simply turned my phone off and stopped answering the door. I am afraid that I will make this decision again, which is why I’ve been so hesitant about returning to Church.
Leaving the community, on the other hand, was extremely difficult – I had to escape in the wee hours of the morning, and even after escaping, community members drove three hours to my mother’s house to find me! Not that I actually desire that level of control over my life, but sometimes it seems like I need it due to what appears to be an intrinsic lack of self-control. I also used to think that going to JAIL would be the only way I’d be able to reform my character, because I wouldn’t be able to make any wrong decisions there! So immature….
You have me curious about the nature of your experience in that community, although I understand if you don’t want to share it publicly. It sounds interesting. And yes, I believe one has to find intrinsic ways of motiving oneself to be spiritual. As it says in D&C 121, in the last two or three verses, the type of “Kingdom” which individuals, and I assume God strive for is one where people live the gospel “without compulsory means”. I take this to mean that we live the gospel for its own sake, because it’s right and good and not because someone is forcing us or because there are external rewards or punishments ready to rain down upon our heads if we violate them.
It’s also dawning on me that part of the purpose of this site is to help people find their own intrinsic reasons for living the gospel when they find it hard to accept the external reasons (called Standard Mormon Answers [SMA]) which they no longer accept. I think coming up with your own deep meaning truth that motivates you, independent of the cultural norms, rules, procedures, etcetera. This may well be the heart of Stage 5 as I’ve tried to figure our what it actually means.
Quote:It’s also dawning on me that part of the purpose of this site is to help people find their own intrinsic reasons for living the gospel when they find it hard to accept the external reasons (called Standard Mormon Answers [SMA]) which they no longer accept.
Bingo!!
kira wrote:I also appreciated learning that it is time for me to grow up and stop relying solely upon externals (environment, authoritative controls and social support) for my faith. I am starting to see the importance of taking responsibility for my own growth instead of seeking constant direction and help from others.
What a great thing to realize, Kira. Well said.
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