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Hi all, my name is Mike and I post as Saganist in a few other places online, mostly NOM. I joined the LDS church almost exactly 10 years ago and married my wonderful wife in the temple about a year later. I had actually done my homework and knew most of the troubling historical and doctrinal issues before I was baptized, but I really wanted to believe and I found LDS apologetics gave me the wiggle room I needed to put those things on the shelf. Things were fine until about three years ago, when I started to realize that my belief in God has always been a little shaky and I asked myself why I believed in God at all. I found that my beliefs were based not on reason or evidence, but emotion and wishful thinking instead. I’m definitely not saying that everyone who believes in God does so for the same reasons I did, but for me the reasons were insufficient when I examined them closely. The universe made more sense to me with no supernatural beings at all, and as my belief in God fell away, my belief in the LDS church quickly came tumbling after, especially as all the old issues resurfaced in my mind and I began to look into them from a different perspective. That’s basically the state of my literal beliefs these days: I find the likelihood of any gods to be minimal and I have serious doubts about supernatural claims made by the LDS church or anyone else.
At the same time, I’ve always been a person who is, for lack of a better word, spiritual. I find the nature of human existence to be fascinating, and I love the feeling of being alive and being part of something so much larger than I am. I recently listened to the Mormon Stories episodes about Karen Armstrong and was struck by the distinction between logos and mythos. As I reflect on my own life, I see that I tend to swing back and forth emphasizing either one at any given time, but I definitely have a strong affinity for both and I think I always will.
Lately I feel like I’ve been in a very Fowler Stage 5 kind of mood, trying to reconcile the two. It’s not that I find the idea of God unappealing, just that I think it’s unlikely to be literally true. And yet I think there can be great value in the metaphor and how we apply it to our own lives, and I’m interested in exploring that further. As far as the LDS church, I have a lot of problems with its often authoritarian stance, and I find many of its claims unlikely to be literally true. Yet I find value in the community and many of the teachings, and I enjoy the rich symbolism and ritual. I think I would like to engage with the church more than I have been, and I’ve even been kicking around the idea of trying to get a temple recommend again. I’m not sure how my relationship with the church will end up in the long term, but for now I would like to stay LDS at least mostly on my own terms, though for the first time in a long time I think I’m willing to make a few personal sacrifices as well.
It’s nice to be here, and thanks for having me.
Hi Saganist! It’s great to see you here. I always love the thoughts you share at NOM and elsewhere. Didn’t you guys just have a baby too? Congradulations (If I am remembering that correctly).
I really connect with your statements above about spirituality, “reality” around us (the universe) and God. I am not nearly as agnostic as you. I have always had a natural sense of God being there … although, through my own crisis of faith process, I realize I don’t know what that sense is exactly. Breaking my expectations and assumptions opened up possibilities that are fascinating to think about and explore. Is God a man with a white beard sitting on a throne? *shrug* maybe … if he/she/it wants to be a man with a white beard and a robe. Is God an organizing pattern that permeates physical reality (everywhere and nowhere, etc.)? Sure, that might be another way of exploring this sense of divinity too. I lost my dependence on correct and incorrect (only two options). Thoughts are little adventures to me now.
What I really connect with most in your views is the thought process, and the willingness to examine what is going on inside me, and to be open to just letting those senses happen. Yes. Our spiritual beliefs are based on emotion, and perhaps the irrational (in the classical philosophical sense of being beyond the rational, perhaps super-rational is a better word). But like you observed, that is how we humans are. This is how we evolved and how we exist. Denying our irrational (super-rational), emotional, spiritual nature denies us some of the most unique and beautiful experiences of being a human. In my mind, to be completely “fair,” denying this part of us is just as bad as the overly religious who deny the rational (like those who categorically reject science as “the devil” trying to lead us astray).
So glad to have you here with us! I look forward as always to your thoughts on the process of integrating back into the LDS experience from our new perspectives.
Brian Johnston wrote:What I really connect with most in your views is the thought process, and the willingness to examine what is going on inside me, and to be open to just letting those senses happen. Yes. Our spiritual beliefs are based on emotion, and perhaps the irrational (in the classical philosophical sense of being beyond the rational, perhaps super-rational is a better word). But like you observed, that is how we humans are. This is how we evolved and how we exist. Denying our irrational (super-rational), emotional, spiritual nature denies us some of the most unique and beautiful experiences of being a human. In my mind, to be completely “fair,” denying this part of us is just as bad as the overly religious who deny the rational (like those who categorically reject science as “the devil” trying to lead us astray).
Wow! Ditto, ditto, ditto! Now I remember why I like this place…and sad I’ve had to be away for a while.
I like the concept of us “naturally” being spiritual. I’ve sensed, especially with Dawkin’s “God Delusion,” a zealous proselytizing against “God” that feels so much like the flip-side to the same coin as missionaries! Why not leave the agenda behind and open up to the many possibilities that we have, and are experiencing in this life? Just as we have a very narrow perception of visual wavelengths, it seems logical to me that there are many aspects of energy that we are only beginning to understand…and couldn’t that be deity in its own right?
“Church” has been around for a long time, and has been an integral part of our survival, community, and entertainment as a species. Rather than fight against “its” existence, why not allow the natural evolution of the individuals’ experience to re-shape the dogma, and keep the beautiful support and social system that has been comfortably established?
Hey, Saganist! It’s good to see you here. Like Brian, I (Justin Morning) enjoyed your posts at NOM. And hi, Rix, too. It’s good to see whenever you are able to post. Mystery is a good thing. Keeps us humble and growing, I think.
Welcome, Saganist. I relate with a lot of your comments. I think you are in good company here. Somehow, many folks in the church have mixed up the term “spiritual” with authority and obedience and changed it to mean something more like “religious”. Oddly, many Mormons seem less spiritual than those of other faiths who embrace humanism. I don’t think this is a norm or the majority, just that there are a few who take a Pharisaical stance, and that this, to me, rejects true spirituality. Welcome Saganist! I feel like I share much of what you have expressed. I also loved the Karen Armstrong episode! I
reallydon’t know about the literal existence of supernatural beings, but I have a strong interest in, and even an affinity for *God* and spirituality. I too value the community of the church, and I like that my participation there stretches me personally. I look forward to many interesting future discussions!
Quote:It’s not that I find the idea of God unappealing, just that I think it’s unlikely to be literally true. And yet I think there can be great value in the metaphor and how we apply it to our own lives, and I’m interested in exploring that further. As far as the LDS church, I have a lot of problems with its often authoritarian stance, and I find many of its claims unlikely to be literally true. Yet I find value in the community and many of the teachings, and I enjoy the rich symbolism and ritual.
I can relate to this.Welcome!
Welcome, welcome! Welcome, Saganist! It’s so good to have you here. Thanks for the warm welcome, everyone! I appreciate it. hawkgrrrl wrote:there are a few who take a Pharisaical stance, and that this, to me, rejects true spirituality.
I totally agree with this. People often like to order things in neat little boxes labeled Good and Bad, but life is so much richer than that. Even though you are probably right that the majority in the LDS church aren’t Pharisees, I think I’ve (perhaps unfairly) come to expect it as the natural state of things. I’ve been going to church and trying to remember that not everyone is like that, and I think my attitude has improved a lot.Along the same lines, I was very interested to watch General Conference this weekend to see what my reaction to it was. So far I’ve been pleasantly surprised by a few of the talks, but I’ve also been disappointed to hear much more talk about “commandments” than about “grace” or “love”. Then again, I’ve had to duck out a few times so my impression may not be totally accurate.
By the way, it’s past midnight here, so it’s now officially the 10 year anniversary of my baptism in the LDS church. Yay me!
Welcome, saganist!! Congrats on ten years!!! Sounds like you will fit in fabulously here! Welcome Saganist. Congrats on the 10 years. Welcome to the forum. Welcome Quote:Things were fine until about three years ago, when I started to realize that my belief in God has always been a little shaky and I asked myself why I believed in God at all. I found that my beliefs were based not on reason or evidence, but emotion and wishful thinking instead.
Yes I had a very similar experience recently. It has become very difficult for me to understand how one can represent anything as truth with just a feeling or belief since so many of my feelings and beliefs turned out to be incorrect. It my be that others have more definitive feelings than me but I am not sure. Now I refer to myself as an Agnostic Mormon. I am perfectly willing to participate in the church to the level I feel comfortable. I will admit any errors I have made but I need more evidence than a feeling to accept something as truth.
I hope for there to be a God, and live my life accordingly. I just have come to the conclusion that if it is so important for me to live by a strict set of rules God would have made it a little easier to understand and interpret his will on my own without some church or individual having to do it for me
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