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Shawn wrote:
There’s some interesting language in the
Church’s statement
Quote:The Court’s decision does not alter the Lord’s doctrine that marriage is a union between a man and a woman
ordained by God. [Emphasis added]
Does that mean a legal marriage of a man and woman is not really a marriage if it is not ordained by God?I think that’s the whole crux of the issue – civil/legal marriage versus religious marriage. They are two separate things.
My Facebook post has gotten a relatively high number of likes – and three vocal disagreeing voices. I knew those three would disagree; I have been a bit surprised by some of the likes. Just had an interesting conversation with my son, he is 18 and has spent the past decade in a Christian Youth Theater group. He mentioned tonight that among his active Christian friends there is a huge divide about today’s ruling. Equal amounts of thumbs ups to equal amounts of thumbs down. Even I was surprised to find a couple of people I would have expected to be opposed to the ruling were in favor or at least okay with it. My son also said, the passions of the divide feel very much like the deep passions that have led to wars in the past. He’s very curious to see the outcome in the next months and years.
Shawn wrote:There’s some interesting language in the
Church’s statement
Quote:The Court’s decision does not alter the Lord’s doctrine that marriage is a union between a man and a woman
ordained by God. [Emphasis added]
Does that mean a legal marriage of a man and woman is not really a marriage if it is not ordained by God?Here’s some emphasis:
The Court’s decision does not alter the Lord’s doctrine that marriage is a union between a man and a
woman ordainedby God. 😈 Old-Timer wrote:My Facebook post has gotten a relatively high number of likes – and three vocal disagreeing voices. I knew those three would disagree; I have been a bit surprised by some of the likes.
That’s been my experience as well. The loudest voices that are disagreeing come as no surprise whatsoever but some of the supporting voices I’ve seen are surprising.
I did not hear about the church launching a massive campaign about when the issue was before courts. Did they learn that the victory of prop 8 hurt the church as much as it helped further its values regarding SS marriage? Or is a case before the courts not the same as legislation up for vote, thus requiring a different approach than Prop 8? Silent Dawning asked Quote:Did they learn that the victory of prop 8 hurt the church as much as it helped further its values regarding SS marriage? Or is a case before the courts not the same as legislation up for vote, thus requiring a different approach than Prop 8?
Probably a bit of both, additionally I think Dallin Oaks could see the legal writing on the wall. I am sure with his own justice experience on the state level, and present connections he still has he knew this or something close to it was inevitable, I think that was why he made the various comments about civility in GC, and then tried to set the same thing up this spring with the church backing the legislation.
I live on the west coast and I remember reading a newspaper article during 2012 election that stated the LDS church had been invited by other churches to be part of a Prop 8 type campaign in my state, according to the piece the church declined or did not respond in time to join the coalition. Local leaders talked a bit about it, but nothing compared to the efforts of 2008.
Old-Timer wrote:My Facebook post has gotten a relatively high number of likes – and three vocal disagreeing voices. I knew those three would disagree; I have been a bit surprised by some of the likes.
I’m just curious, if you’re okay with sharing. What exactly did you post?My wife shared one facebook post with me that we both thought was excellent. It basically said the author was tired of all the vitriol that many were expressing towards gay people. She said that we might not have trouble with that particular commandment but that none of us obey perfectly. Let he who is without sin throw the first stone. Quote:It is also of note that the church has shifted its rhetoric of late from being opposed to gay marriage itself to religious freedom, AKA, not forcing churches to perform or recognize gay marriage. I don’t see any movement to compromise this freedom so I think the church is safe for now.
I keep hearing this. This will never happen. The church does not get sued by non-members wanting temple weddings. Legalizing gay marriage will not change the legal landscape in this regard. Seems like simple fear mongering to me.
OTOH, I do believe that individuals and businesses may get into more and more trouble for discriminating based on protected classes. The Hobby Lobby case was interesting and I do not think that we are done figuring out the limits of personal conscience as applied to business practices. Does the church advocate for the religious freedom of individuals or individual member owned businesses to discriminate?
Friday, I posted the following: Quote:Just a few small but important points for some of my LDS friends:
There are more LGBT citizens than LDS citizens.
Anyone who says LGBT citizens need to keep their orientation to themselves but supports missionary work as presently constituted ought to stop and think just a bit more deeply.
I am happy today specifically because I am Mormon. If you don’t understand that, there probably is nothing more I can say.
Yesterday, I posted the following:
Quote:Some detail about my post yesterday, with a plea that anyone who comments please respond ONLY to what I actually write in this one:
1) I said that Mormons are a smaller percentage of the population in the United States than LGBT citizens because someone said the LGBT comunnity is a tiny minority and that LGBT citizens should just shut up and not rub their agenda in his face. My point: Following that reasoning, Mormons should just shut up and not rub our agenda in others’ faces.
I don’t believe we should shut up, so I don’t believe LGBT citizens should shut up, ether.
2) I also pointed out that being politically active and trying to get one’s beliefs codified into law – and also trying to convert people to one’s point of view – is NOT close to being something that is exclusive to the LGBT community. We Mormons have been doing it for a long time, as well – and we have been very active about doing it.
I don’t believe we should stop trying to protect our right to believe as we believe and to see reasonable application of many of those beliefs in our laws, so I don’t believe LGBT citizens should stop trying to do the exact same thing.
3) I do NOT believe any religion should be forced to do things that are against their core teachings and theology – and that means I believe ALL religions ought to be able to marry whomever they choose to marry, subject to reasonable restrictions that focus on consent (including the ability to consent).
I believe that LGBT people should be allowed to marry, if there are churches that will perform those marriages – and there are, including Christian churches. Thus, I see the SCOTUS decision yesterday as a victory for religious freedom – since it says my religion can continue to exclude marriages it does not want to sanction and allows other churches the same right, let them worship God according to their own consciences by marrying whomever they may.
Here is what I posted on my facebook which got a good response from most of my divided family and friend members. My evangelical ‘Nelly” daughter did get into a big fight with other gay family members. Today is one of those days that this post is appropriate. There are such strong feelings on both sides of the Supreme court ruling today. Here is a good article that shows how both sides should act towards each other:
Church: We Have Work To Do
JUNE 26, 2015 1 COMMENT BY MATTHIAS ROBERTS With this morning’s Supreme Court ruling on same-sex marriage, let’s not forget what’s most important. It’s a historic day. The Supreme Court has just ruled that same-sex marriages are a right. As our social media feeds begin to bury us with countless news stories, blog posts, reflections, and “I don’t usually say…” posts, may we not forget what is the most important.
People.
For those of us who are celebrating, we must resist the temptation to rub our happiness in the faces of those who don’t agree with us. Celebrate with full abandon, but let’s not do it at the expense of our friends. We, of all people, know what that is like. It can feel so good to return the favor, but let’s be careful.
We still have work to do. As more and more churches introduce inclusionary practices, it is our time to step up. LGBT Christians are in a unique place to speak into this culture shift: from a place of faith. We are able to step into our communities and help guide them into spaces that are sensitive and dignifying.
This is (unfortunately) a new thing to many people. We must speak with voices of grace, kindness, and an understanding that change will continue to take time. Jumping all over people because they didn’t use the right term, or because they have objections to our theological ideas, or because we don’t see eye to eye, will not help anyone. Today’s ruling isn’t filled with magical “now we are fully accepted!” powder – yesterday’s challenges are still here.
Speaking what we believe to be truth does not give us a pass on the spiritual fruits of kindness and gentleness.For those of us who are not celebrating, we must also be careful with our words. There are people listening, people we may unintentionally drive away. By posting that status with a ‘clear proclamation of God’s truth,’ we may be ruining our witness. Is this a time to stay silent? No. But it is a time to craft responses that uphold the personhood of the people who we are discussing. Speaking what we believe to be truth does not give us a pass on the spiritual fruits of kindness and gentleness.
Beyond how we are responding to today’s news, there’s a deeper reality. Kids are still sitting scared behind their closet doors terrified of the words that they will be hearing coming from their parents’ mouths. There are kids who are once again vowing that no one will ever know about their sexual attractions because the stakes are too high: be gay and labeled sinfully dirty, or stuff it all down and remain untarnished.
Many of our churches and faith communities are not safe spaces for LGBT people. This sad reality goes beyond our views on the morality of same-sex relationships or what we believe about trans people. It reveals how we treat people who are different than us and is a direct reflection on how well we are carrying out Jesus’s great commandment to love God and love others.
There are many people who are scared to walk into our churches because they don’t know how they will be received, or what they will be told. The Supreme Court ruling doesn’t change this, in fact, it may make things even worse.
News like this has a tendency to flare up internalized prejudices in all our communities (not just in our churches). As followers of Jesus, today’s ruling gives us another opportunity to show and spread the radical love of Christ. This love is offered to everyone, especially people who are different than us. It is a love that combats prejudice in all forms, it is a love that drives out fear of the other, and it is love that we all possess.
In celebration or in sadness, we can choose to focus on what is really important: the people around us. We can choose to love them deeply. For some of us, that love may be swallowing our pride and sitting with people who are grieving as they pray for our country – and praying with them. For others, it may be hugging and sharing joy with our neighbors who are finally able to get married. As we focus on the people who surround us, we invest in relationships and human lives.
At the end of the day, we are all people who are deeply loved, and we are called to be people who share that love without qualification.
Bridget_night this might be the most beautiful thing I’ve read about this subject. Would you mind if I quoted you on your last few sentences on Facebook? My wife has gotten a lot of flak for posting something about gay marriage on her timeline, and she loved what you wrote. Quote:
…Is this a time to stay silent? No. But it is a time to craft responses that uphold the personhood of the people who we are discussing. Speaking what we believe to be truth does not give us a pass on the spiritual fruits of kindness and gentleness.This is a great statement. of course, I feel this way every day…not just today and not just about this issue.
Quote:Beyond how we are responding to today’s news, there’s a deeper reality. Kids are still sitting scared behind their closet doors terrified of the words that they will be hearing coming from their parents’ mouths. There are kids who are once again vowing that no one will ever know about their sexual attractions because the stakes are too high: be gay and labeled sinfully dirty, or stuff it all down and remain untarnished.
This is a good reminder of how the focus on individuals and how youth need support should always be kept in mind.Good words.
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