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Today in SS the teacher asked us what we would do if Pres. Monson told us at next GC that the Savior was coming in 5 years. It was more of a rhetorical/thought question, what we would do differently etc. She then brought up Samuel the Lamanite and said that the Nephites had exactly this kind of notice but still weren’t prepared when the Savior did come and they didn’t listen to StL. She tried to make a correlation between StL and other prophets and modern prophets – that we might all be excited at first but by the time 5 years came to pass (see what I did there?) we probably wouldn’t be prepared. I don’t disagree with that, but I did make the point that while we recognize StL as a prophet, he was not recognized as one by the Nephites, partly because he was a Lamanite. So with StL, it was more like a prophet from another church (perhaps the CoC or the pope) telling us the Savior is coming – we wouldn’t listen either because he’s not our prophet and we’d thing he’s cracked – and we’d probably shoot symbolic arrows at him. Thoughts?
I have always loved the StL story for the multiple blindness reasons. Even after Christ arrives in the narrative, they have to stick StL back in. As to preparedness I wonder. 5 years isn’t that long. I can’t say I would be prepared but then I am late for everything in my life. But I look back and see members getting super focused on Y2K or Emergency Preparedness. Some may. I just hope the preppers are my friends, because I am going to need to borrow some supplies.
When someone in authority puts us in a position to have to make a decision, we mentally make a list of pros and cons including consequences for the choices to be made. If it were today and Pres. Monson were to be the one making the announcement it would be really loaded given that it would be done with the agreement of his counselors and the Twelve, Seventies, and the PB. There would lots of sheep from the goats talks and I guess we’d then just wait and see but I don’t think I, for one, would automatically get back on the train. It left the station too long ago. Yep, it is easy to condemn the Nephites for not listening to StL and driving him away – but very few, if any, Mormons would accept Joel Osteen preaching to them like that – and Protestants Catholics wouldn’t listen to and accept Pres. Monson saying it to them. There are a lot of lessons we miss from the scriptures simply because we accept existing readings (inaccurate and accurate) and fail to examine the narratives from a different perspective.
GBSmith wrote:I, for one, would automatically get back on the train. It left the station too long ago.
ditto – I don’t see WHEN Chirst would be returning as changing how I live. I need to be living a good life if he was coming tomorrow or after I die.It reminds me of the joke, “Jesus is coming. Look busy!”
That’s a really good observation DarkJedi. Also, is there a difference between prophesying that someone is coming back as opposed to prophesying that someone is going to showing up for the first time? Maybe people would be more receptive towards the message that Jesus, a guy that was here 2000 years ago and among other things said he’d be back, is coming in 5 years vs. the message that Jesus, a complete stranger that leaders have been nagging you to death about the importance of believing in, is coming in 5 years.
On the other hand, did the Nephites have to wrestle with a few thousand years worth of of failed arrival prophesies? Did they have several scriptures in their canon that said something along the lines of “no man knoweth the day nor the hour of his birth?” To me that’s what Monson would be up against. If he came out and said the savior was coming in 5 years I might think, “he’s finally lost it,” citing the no man knoweth verses.
But your point stands. How many members followed Julie Rowe’s predictions? She was kind of like Samuel the Lamanite. A woman issuing prophecies, probably as far outside the expected channel of revelation as a Lamanite preaching to the Nephites back in the day.
I don’t think knowing it was 5 years out would make much difference to me. Wouldn’t it just set up the following scenario at the judgment bar:
St. Peter: We’re going to have to sentence you to the… now let’s see, what was it again? Sea tur tle. Telestial kingdom, yea, that’s the one.
nibbler: But wait, I repented! I turned things around.
St. Peter: Yeah, but only because we gave you that 5 year notice. If not for that where would you be?
nibbler: But I listened to the notice.
St. Peter: You only obeyed out of fear. Fear that we instilled in you via a veiled form of coercion.
nibbler: But wasn’t that the point of the warning?
St. Peter: You’re supposed to obey out of love, not fear.
Ok, I’m being goofy this morning but I think the announcement of a 5 year head start to my deathbed repentance would merit a “cool story bro” based on lived experience and I’d be judged for the person I am rather than the person I tried to be for 5 years. I’d rather grow into my 5 years from now self as opposed to being rushed into it.
In fairness to the teacher, she did say Pres. Monson would not make such an announcement because nobody knows when Christ is coming, even Christ himself. Of course in some ways that furthers the narrative – what if LDS theology is wrong about that and the StL is someone like Joel Osteen, Julie Rowe or Pope Francis? Mom3:
Quote:I just hope the preppers are my friends, because I am going to need to borrow some supplies.
Someone in the class actually said something similar to this.The teacher also pointed out that the people had to be reminded that StL prophesied of Christ’s coming, that they didn’t write it down.
I agree GBS and LH, in reality I probably wouldn’t change anything. If I believed the prophesy to begin with, I also believe I’m doing the best I can right now and as Nibbler points out I’d rather be judged for who I actually am rather than who I’m trying to be based on fear of burning or being a goat (I am a capricorn, does that have any bearing?)
Nibbler:
Does “Jesus is coming. Look busy!” = Hasten the work? I ask because I get this message, although not with the exact verbiage, almost every time I hear a talk about family history and temple work or missionary work. Just saying.
If LDS theology is right about no man knowing when Christ will return it makes perfect sense to me (most LDS theology does, that’s one of the things I like about the church). If we don;t know when He’s coming then we have to be on our best behavior all time lest we become goats. Lots of good old guilt there.
nibbler wrote:“Jesus is coming. Look busy!”
😆 😆 I have also wonder how many people predicted christ coming at different times…like the apostles in the old world that were preparing for the 2nd coming within their lifetimes. Or how many people heeded the warnings and were prepared for Christ in the Americas…but they fell down a hole in the earth from the earthquakes.
And where did StL go? He isn’t really mentioned anywhere in the 3 Ne visits from the savior. He wasn’t called as one of the disciples when christ ordained his church leaders. Where did he go? Lots of questions, I think.
And another question… Did Samuel the Lamanite have authority to speak for God? We sure emphasize proper priesthood lines of authority to know if we are listening to God’s chosen mouthpiece and avoid listening to others of the world. Did authority matter in the Book of Mormon prior to 3 Nephi? Maybe it was like Joseph Smith who didn’t have authority when he was called either. Maybe authority matters only when keys are held on the earth, and when they are not on the earth, God works through many different sources, like StL or Joseph Smith or Muhammed or Emanuel Swedenborg. But when keys are on the earth and not lost…that is the authorized mouthpiece to know who should properly predict future events???
There has always been and always will be “prophets” who claim to predict Christ’s second coming. There are even a few out there who claim to be Christ come in the flesh (AJ Miller, for example). And many of them, like the LDS Church, ask you to take their claims before God and ask in the sencerity of heart if they are true. And many report and overwhelming sense of the spirit confirming such. But I think many, including myself, are prone to error as to what is correct and what is not. The best course of action I think is to live like you are going to die. Because no matter when Christ comes to the earth, it is much more likely that we are first going to meet him. As for “prophets”, listen to what gives you peace and happiness in this life, and what encourages you to serve and reach out to others. But unquestioning devotion to any man will likely get you into trouble.
LOL, every time you used the acronym StL I thought you meant Salt Lake. It still works, right? But, the other thing you have to keep in mind is that there wasn’t really any way for the BoM people to
preparefor Christ’s coming. When he was born, there was three days of light. There’s not really anything you need to do about that, it’s more of just a cool visual. But then when Christ died, all hell broke loose in the New World – they had three days of darkness, but it didn’t matter how much firewood you had stacked up on the side of your house, they literally could not light a fire. Entire cities burned or sank into the sea – presumably taking everyone’s food storage with it. And spiritualpreparation doesn’t seem to have made any more of a difference than temporal preparation did. Lots of righteous people were killed in all this destruction (including babies and young children) and probably some unrighteous people survived. So, if you really want to use this story to hammer the importance of preparedness, you have to stretch it a LOT. I totally agree, Joni. There can be so many problems with food storage and emergency prep that can bring a false sense of security. Still can be some good things to do, but realistically, being prepared spiritually is the main idea, I think. Heber13 wrote:I totally agree, Joni. There can be so many problems with food storage and emergency prep that can bring a false sense of security. Still can be some good things to do, but realistically, being prepared spiritually is the main idea, I think.
I love the book, “To Mormons With Love: A Little Something from the New Girl in Utah” by Chrisy Ross. She moved to Alpine Utah knowing there were “a bunch of Mormons” living there and had many Mormon friends over the years. But she was not ready for the culture shock. She comments about how every house has a “cold” room down in the basement. After a while she realizes everyone uses that for food storage. She uses it for a room to store wine in. She comments something to the effect of
Quote:This arrangement works out good for everyone. If the Apocalypse occurs, her neighbors are all good people and they will share the food they have. And I can share a bit of wine with them to take the edge off!
It is a good book that is a good quick read. Even a TBM will like reading it. She makes no offensive remarks. I think about the most offensive thing she might have in the book is that she found out that Utah county has the “TRUE Mormons” and the loosy-goosey Mormons generally live north of point of the mountain. She also has a serious 2 chapters in the book. One is addressed to Mormons and one is addressed to non-Mormons coming to the area with good suggestions – such as non-Mormons that are not interested in the church should not give a polite/timid “No” when asked if they are interested, but instead need to be more firm and say, “No. I have no interest as I am very established in my own church/beliefs.” And to the Mormons, “No means No” and don’t overwhelm someone that shows a glimmer of interest in the church (like her example of being invited to a “neighborhood” – read “ward” – picnic and as soon as they come the entire ward lines up in a line to shake hands and introduce themselves).A great humorous little book I would recommend to just about anybody. I hope I am not going to be told to move this to the book review section
I agree about that book. It is excellent.
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