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NightSG: My LDS grandfather met someone who asked about his horns. My grandfather leaned forward and pointed to both sides of his head where his hair was receeding and said “that’s where the horns were. I had them cut off.”
.. Then we wonder why these stories are still out there ..
DarkJedi wrote:Again, I do believe in evil and I do believe people do evil things.
Of course you do. Look at your avatar!
Seriously though, good points.
azguy, I like your statement: Quote:Satan looks at the camera and says something to the effect of, “If any of you fail to live up to the covenants you make here in the temple today, you will be under my power!” Now, when I first went to the temple, I completely believed this line. I completely believed that if I ever committed even the smallest fraction of any sin, I would lose all control and be subject to Satan’s control. I explained this to the other missionary I was speaking with, and he set me straight. He just flat out said, “Satan is lying”. I responded with, “But it’s in the temple movie, it can’t be a lie!” The other missionary responded back with, “ALL HE DOES IS LIE!!!”
Even though I still can recall that conversation from ~15 years ago, I don’t think it completely set in to me until just recently. That statement that Satan makes in the endowment movie is a lie. We will not and cannot be perfect in this life. We will all fall short, and that is ok. Being able to fully understand and embrace this idea has been so liberating and freeing to me. It’s OK if I miss some church meeting here or there. It’s OK when my wife and I decide we are just going to take a whole month off from church. It’s OK for me to tell my bishop that I just can’t do that assignment, or that calling. I don’t need to feel bad for not gardening. I don’t need to feel bad for not keeping a journal every day of my life.
I am doing the best I can in this life.
I agree completely. That is why I need the Savior. That is why I take the sacrament. That is why I try, knowing I will never be perfect in this life.
When I fall I get back up. For me, that’s the PLAN. Designed from the beginning of time. That is why I like to go to temple. For a reminder.
(There are conversations I’ve had with people many years ago that stick with me forever. Just like the one you shared here.)
Thank you.
The scriptures and temple are being drafted by faithful believers trying to express a story and a point to be made. Its not a literal discussion of things said, but lies are what help characterize a Lucifer figure. However, I get the impression the intent when temple ceremonies were drafted that it was to stress importance of keeping covenants, and was probably not so deep or complex as to include multiple layered plot twists to be analyzed over 100 yrs. It reminds me of my Humanities professor at BYU that wrote a poem and we all analyzed it and discussed it. When some students brought forward some ideas for symbolism in the poem, he responded, “Well…I hadn’t thought of that before when I was writing it…but I surely see how that could be drawn from the poem.” Even the author of the poem doesn’t have to create all the meaning for readers…just make it interesting enough the readers can get out of it what they need to get out of it, and even add to it beyond intent of the creator.
I don’t believe much in a literal devil figure. I believe I have choices of good and evil to make, and temptations that my mind creates all my own…without external forces being at play.
What I love about the temple is the symbolism and metaphor to draw from it meaning.
This is tongue-in-cheek but there’s this meme called “Good Guy Lucifer” that turns people’s traditional view of Lucifer on its head. Here’s some samples: 
[img]http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/b7/b726b2eb174e18402e893b49b0fbd937e9efee8c89b9deec696f1e5c2111a993.jpg [/img] 
[img]http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/18/185ed4e139e0c45d02ddf3e4b5cafc432ab6e9575f7fe0e53415474768ae2ec6.jpg [/img] 
[img]http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/f5/f5dcfab221537eb2b9519492e182d88bac6b89571499d59968c42c1357bee9c7.jpg [/img] They go on and on. Many of them really get at divorcing the character from their actions. In other words don’t assume something is good just because someone attributed the action to god and something is evil just because someone attributed the action to the devil; look at the actual actions themselves and decide whether they are good or bad.
nibbler, Sounds kinda like the plot twist in “Wicked”, where you see the evil character of the old Wizard of Oz movie different if a story is told from another viewpoint. Also, when the story is so well known, it jazzes it up a bit to make a new story. That also raises the question about where we get “lies” from, what are lies and what are not lies.
I love your last paragraph AZGuy. Years ago, Brian Johnson (former moderator) said something like “the sooner you can get on your OWN CLOCK, the happier you’ll be”. That really stuck with me. And I slowly did so, issue by issue, discussing it here on StayLDS where there is a more open-minded approach to activity. I now have my own opinions and they eclipse the opinions of leaders, who I no longer believe know more than I do.
It really is up to me to give what I can give, and to take charge of the object and design of my own existence — happiness. And sometimes the church is a detractor from that goal.
Your statement above is an expression of that self-directedness. I remember feeling that incredible pressure after my first Ward Council meeting when I was in my early 20’s to do so much. And I let that drive me for decades.
No longer. I was less active for the last three years, and the church did just fine without me. I kept my job, my marriage stayed intact, and one of my children emerged as an exemplary LDS youth. And if anything bad happens to me in the next few years, I put it down to random variation, life, my personal choices, but not as punishment for “turning my back” on the church.
I wonder why Satan “lied” in that statement — assuming he wants everyone to be miserable like himself, that statement might be so impossible that everyone is discouraged and stops trying, increasing Satan’s harvest. Perhaps that was his motive Or, it could be motivating for many, reducing his harvest.
In my view, a committee wrote that statement, not Satan. And they missed. They think they are motivating everyone, but in reality, they are creating unrealistic expectations.
The fact is, I don’t believe it.
SilentDawning wrote:that statement might be so impossible that everyone is discouraged and stops trying
I agree with SD…and think this is really the big evil to watch for.
As long as we are trying, the atonement can save us from evil. Managing expectations is critical.
Also…staying humble and learning is a part of trying. While leaders may not know more than I do…I am still grateful that I find those times when they say something inspired that helps me learn and keep trying. I think it helps to have prophets and revelation from leaders…however that happens. I need more than just myself and my own thinking to make sense of things.
The whole use of the name “Lucifer” in the temple is a big red flag to me. The word that is translated to Lucifer in Hebrew is “Shining one, light bearer”, in Greek is “morning star” and in the Latin Vulgate is “Venus” (the planet). It is mostly from popular literature that the name Lucifer came to equate with Satan. Books like Dante’s Inferno and Milton’s Paradise Lost made the connection. While English now uses the name Lucifer exclusively for Satan, in Latin it was applied to others, including Jesus. The use in the temple just seems wrong.
Sheldon wrote:The use in the temple just seems wrong.
Or, perhaps new and deeper meanings when you understand those translation possibilities.Sheldon wrote:The whole use of the name “Lucifer” in the temple is a big red flag to me. The word that is translated to Lucifer in Hebrew is “Shining one, light bearer”, in Greek is “morning star” and in the Latin Vulgate is “Venus” (the planet).
It is mostly from popular literature that the name Lucifer came to equate with Satan. Books like Dante’s Inferno and Milton’s Paradise Lost made the connection. While English now uses the name Lucifer exclusively for Satan, in Latin it was applied to others, including Jesus. The use in the temple just seems wrong.
I don’t like the name Lucifer used in the temple, either, for the same reasons you mention. And, Lucifer is used only once in the Bible (in Isaiah 14, quoted in 2 Nephi) and there are scholars who make the case that the passage is not referring to Satan at all but instead refers to a fallen Babylonian king (Google it). Isaiah makes no direct reference to Satan in that chapter. I’m fine with referring to the devil as the devil or Satan, I do not like Lucifer (except the TV show
🙂 ).Frankly, I couldn’t care less what name we choose to associate with a devil/evil/sin/temptation/whatever. I understand the concern over the use of Lucifer, intellectually, but it just isn’t on my list of things that bother me.
azguy wrote:but there is a part in the endowment movie where the actor playing Satan looks at the camera and says something to the effect of, “If any of you fail to live up to the covenants you make here in the temple today, you will be under my power!”
So help me, I always used to get the giggles when that part came up. (Also, whever they were like “the lion… the tiger… the bear” I always had to add “Oh my!” under my breath but I highly doubt I’m the only one.)
Even when I was fully TBM I never believed that statement to be literally true. It just seems like manipulation to me – considering how weird and emotionally charged the whole endowment is, it’s par for the course.
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