Saving Ordinances

[Anonymous]

Quote:

…During those periods when the priesthood to perform the saving ordinances of the gospel was not upon the earth, there were millions who lived, many of whom were faithful souls. If there hadn’t been a way by which the saving ordinances of the gospel could be performed for those who thus died without the knowledge of the gospel, the gates of hell would have prevailed against our Father’s plan of salvation.

I’m not sure how to explain my curiosity about this quote from Harold B. Lee from Teachings of the Presidents of the Church, it’s not doubt but it doesn’t make sense, am I allowed to say that? The powers of evil or the powers of death over those who had not heard the gospel because it was not on the earth would not be a consequence of action or choice but of circumstance for billions of people. Is performing baptism for the dead for all those described the only way to free them from chains of hell? Surely that ordinance is not going to be performed for every person thru time who did not have a chance to hear the gospel. I have to add that I had a very spiritual experience the one and only time that I performed confirmations in the temple several years ago.

[Anonymous]

Kipper, can you describe what your spiritual experience was? It would help to better understand what your talking about.

[Anonymous]

I’m sorry I wasn’t clear, if only to myself . I’m asking why is it said to us that baptism for the dead is the only way for the dead to be saved? Surely not everyone thru time who died and not heard the gospel is going to be bound by chains of death and hell unless that ordinance is performed for them. There’s no way to account for them all. And, what about those who have died and heard gospel, why do we perform the ordnance for for them? Not saying I don’t believe any of this, it just doesn’t make sense just like many other doctrine I am taught and don’t ask about. That said, shortly after I received my own endowment and TR I was with the youth who were being baptised for the dead and I was doing the confirmations and had an undeniable spiritual experience with every name I announced and confirmed. Thank you for asking for clarity, hope that helped.

[Anonymous]

Wearing my orthodox hat: Our doctrine is that no one can enter the kingdom of heaven without baptism. We’re not alone in that, many other Christians also believe that. We also believe that God provided a way for all of those who were not baptized in this life to have the ordinance done by proxy in the temple. A little deeper in that doctrine is that during the millennium all of us will spend all or most of the thousand years in the temple doing that temple work and that God will make the needed information known to us.

Hat off: I don’t believe that either. I am a universalist. I believe we will all be saved and even exalted and I don’t believe baptism or other temple or saving ordinances are necessary for that.

[Anonymous]

DarkJedi wrote:

Hat off: I don’t believe that either. I am a universalist. I believe we will all be saved and even exalted and I don’t believe baptism or other temple or saving ordinances are necessary for that.

I have to admit that I am not a Universalist. Some people are truly bad. Ed Gein. Pol Pot. Beria. Dr Mengele. I can’t see a heaven with people like that. Do we really want to think the Butcher of Belsen gets the same reward as Father Damian of Molokai? That said, there are many people who have done bad things who have had a difficult life that led them there, and I believe God will take that into account. I don’t think most people are necessarily destined for Hell.

[Anonymous]

SamBee wrote:

DarkJedi wrote:

Hat off: I don’t believe that either. I am a universalist. I believe we will all be saved and even exalted and I don’t believe baptism or other temple or saving ordinances are necessary for that.

I have to admit that I am not a Universalist. Some people are truly bad. Ed Gein. Pol Pot. Beria. Dr Mengele. I can’t see a heaven with people like that. Do we really want to think the Butcher of Belsen gets the same reward as Father Damian of Molokai? That said, there are many people who have done bad things who have had a difficult life that led them there, and I believe God will take that into account. I don’t think most people are necessarily destined for Hell.

I also don’t believe there’s a hell (or outer darkness or anything like unto them) in the sense that there’s a place for eternal suffering, but that’s part of universalism. I believe the power of the atonement of Jesus Christ is truly infinite and that we are all therefore capable of repenting and being forgiven – albeit that may take eons. Much of Joseph’s early and even later teachings were universalist (keeping in mind that it was not only his history that had been whitewashed).

[Anonymous]

They all are symbolic; therefore, they are important to the extent people believe they are important.

I don’t believe they are necessary, but I absolutely LOVE the concept that they are necessary AND available to everyone – especially compared to almost all other Christian theologies (and most non-Christian ones). To me, that paradox can serve everyone, if they truly believe both OR simply appreciate the balance.

[Anonymous]

Old Timer wrote:

I don’t believe they are necessary, but I absolutely LOVE the concept that they are necessary AND available to everyone – especially compared to almost all other Christian theologies (and most non-Christian ones).

What non-Christian theologies did you have in mind? I can’t think of many that have “saving ordinances”. In fact, I don’t know of many other Christian denominations which require specific ordinances for salvation, including baptism, outside of the Catholics. Not even the Baptists believe baptism is required for salvation.

Old Timer wrote:

I don’t believe they are necessary, but I absolutely LOVE the concept that they are necessary AND available to everyone…

… through the LDS Church.

[Anonymous]

DarkJedi wrote:

SamBee wrote:

DarkJedi wrote:

Hat off: I don’t believe that either. I am a universalist. I believe we will all be saved and even exalted and I don’t believe baptism or other temple or saving ordinances are necessary for that.

I have to admit that I am not a Universalist. Some people are truly bad. Ed Gein. Pol Pot. Beria. Dr Mengele. I can’t see a heaven with people like that. Do we really want to think the Butcher of Belsen gets the same reward as Father Damian of Molokai? That said, there are many people who have done bad things who have had a difficult life that led them there, and I believe God will take that into account. I don’t think most people are necessarily destined for Hell.

I also don’t believe there’s a hell (or outer darkness or anything like unto them) in the sense that there’s a place for eternal suffering, but that’s part of universalism. I believe the power of the atonement of Jesus Christ is truly infinite and that we are all therefore capable of repenting and being forgiven – albeit that may take eons. Much of Joseph’s early and even later teachings were universalist (keeping in mind that it was not only his history that had been whitewashed).

This is my problem with universalism. The people I mentioned were monsters. One adorned his bed and furniture with human body parts and killed dozens of people… How can we say that such a person deserves the same reward as someone who works in a soup kitchen most of their lives? We can’t. It’s a horrific idea.

I appreciate many live on the boundary between good and evil, but there are some who are truly beyond the Pale.

[Anonymous]

SamBee wrote:

DarkJedi wrote:

SamBee wrote:

I have to admit that I am not a Universalist. Some people are truly bad. Ed Gein. Pol Pot. Beria. Dr Mengele. I can’t see a heaven with people like that. Do we really want to think the Butcher of Belsen gets the same reward as Father Damian of Molokai? That said, there are many people who have done bad things who have had a difficult life that led them there, and I believe God will take that into account. I don’t think most people are necessarily destined for Hell.

I also don’t believe there’s a hell (or outer darkness or anything like unto them) in the sense that there’s a place for eternal suffering, but that’s part of universalism. I believe the power of the atonement of Jesus Christ is truly infinite and that we are all therefore capable of repenting and being forgiven – albeit that may take eons. Much of Joseph’s early and even later teachings were universalist (keeping in mind that it was not only his history that had been whitewashed).

This is my problem with universalism. The people I mentioned were monsters. One adorned his bed and furniture with human body parts and killed dozens of people… How can we say that such a person deserves the same reward as someone who works in a soup kitchen most of their lives? We can’t. It’s a horrific idea.

I appreciate many live on the boundary between good and evil, but there are some who are truly beyond the Pale.

I also believe God loves each of us unconditionally and wants nothing more than for us to return. I do not believe that a loving God made those people that way nor that a loving God would allow Satan such influence that they could never return to Him. Likewise, mental illness is an earthly illness just like diabetes or the flu – and I believe most of these “monsters” suffer from mental illness.

[Anonymous]

DarkJedi wrote:

I also believe God loves each of us unconditionally and wants nothing more than for us to return. I do not believe that a loving God made those people that way nor that a loving God would allow Satan such influence that they could never return to Him. Likewise, mental illness is an earthly illness just like diabetes or the flu – and I believe most of these “monsters” suffer from mental illness.

I’m not saying we shouldn’t try to play our cards right… but I believe anyone would (not could) become a saint if they were dealt the right hand of cards. Likewise, anyone would (not could) become an absolute monster if they were dealt the wrong hand. There are an enormous, uncalcuble amount of influences which take an impact on our lives. Most everything we are, everything we’ve accomplished, all the good, all the bad, the shameful… all of it has roots in forces outside of our control.

I guess what I’m saying is, you can’t judge even the very worst of people, until you’ve walked a mile in their shoes. I heard Christ was able to do that, through the atonement. But for the rest of us, passing judgement on the eternal salvation of others is… nonsense.

[Anonymous]

Contrary to what a lot of people believe, I think many of those who are severely mentally ill can and do have a degree of free agency, and people can take paths by choice which lead them to very dark places. Anders Breivik in Norway knew exactly what he was doing when he committed his massacres, although I suggest he was also mentally ill.

God is going to have a lot of explaining to do if people who died in prison camps in Siberia encounter their guards or the secret police who arrested them. Or if slaves from Africa wake up to find themselves next to KKK leaders. That wouldn’t be heaven, it would be hell for both lots concerned (but in different ways)

[Anonymous]

There are relatively few theologies of universal reward throughout religion. Mormon theology posits nearly universal reward, with varying degrees of reward, and with an exception for intentionally evil people. Mormon theology also posits that the final determination is made by a God who understands perfectly and allows for expansive grace, even if not all Mormons view it that way.

Ordinances simply are “official actions” that manifest intent and desire. Thus, I care less about the ordinances than the intent and desire they manifest. I love the idea of symbolic actions, but I couldn’t care less about the actual form they take.

I also love the idea that ordinances represent salvific intent and desire. Lots of people need concreteness in their lives. They need observable actions that symbolize internal intent and desire. I am not about to take that from them or complain about that need. I honor their practical, organized expressions of intent and desire, even if I don’t place literal salvific power in the ordinances themselves.

I don’t distinguish among the various expressions of actions we call “ordinances”. Prayer, meditation, offerings to ancestors through family shrines, beads and crosses, pilgrimages to holy sites, prayers facing Mecca, fasting, chants, whatever: If they manifest sincere intent and desire toward love, I honor it.

[Anonymous]

SamBee wrote:

God is going to have a lot of explaining to do…

Lol… God explaining… 😆

Old Timer wrote:

There are relatively few theologies of universal reward throughout religion.

I’m having a hard time finding any religions who have not, in modern times, become “universalist” to the extent you just described. Just saying…

[Anonymous]

This to me is similar to the teachings on temple marriage.

(I could quibble about the term “saving ordinances” – LDS doctrine does not believe that any ordinances are required for salvation in a lesser kingdom of glory. Thus all LDS ordinances are “exalting ordinances”. But that whole discussion is arguing semantics.)

I was taught as a youth that to be married in the temple and then to keep that covenant means exaltation and eternal families. To marry outside of the temple meant no exaltation and no eternal families no matter how one lived their life (unless they repent and receive the temple sealing later in mortality or in the spirit world).

Having a temple marriage with all the shared commitments, shared values, and similar visions, hopes, and dreams is a wonderful way to start a marraige. It is not a magic wand or a panacea but it can help. Now there are plenty of couples that have not been sealed in our temples that have some of the most amazingly loving, supportive, and caring families around. They seem to have managed to create “heavenly families” (families with whom they would wish to spend the eternities).

LDS doctrine teaches that the ordinance of sealing will be provided for all. Thus all that would wish to remain in their family for eternity can do so. Said another way, the only thing keeping families apart eternally is their desire not to be together (and theoretically that separation could change as soon as their desire changes).

In summary, Ordinances can be like steps and checklists for those that need steps and checklists. Those same individuals also tend to generalize their experience with the “steps, checklists, and ordinances” to everyone – believing that everyone must approach the throne of God through the same forms and methods. We belong to a faith community that believes these steps are required.

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