- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
I’ve been having some highly unusual thoughts lately. Tonite, my kids fell asleep without a family prayer. I’ve been frustrated with family prayer for years because my wife never supports me in it (not to complain). But if I don’t initiate it, or am not home, it never happens. So it only happens when I’m home, and only if I get home before everyone has gone to bed. My wife is happy just to send them to bed without a prayer so she can have some time to herself. And this in spite of my pleas to make it a regular habit, and its presence in our family statement of values for the last 15 years. Years ago, I read an article that indicated what was the highest correlated variable with activity in kids who grew up in the Church. The answer — personal prayer, and specifically, the ability of the kids to provide themselves with their own spiritual experiences. Prayer is important in that regard, I believe.
Well, this evening, they went to bed, and usually I feel angst that no prayer happened. But this time, my thoughts were “I don’t really care if they grow up to be spiritual anymore; as long as they are good people…that’s enough”. I then visualized a future in which my kids are less active Mormons, but successful in their careers, kind, caring people who live good lives, with religion on the periphery, as it’s becoming with my self this last year and a half. And I felt Ok with it — for about 15 minutes.
And now here I sit wondering what the heck is going on with me. I never used to have thoughts like this and well…I think I actually believe this about 40% right now. Spiritual degeneracy in action?
Yup. Next thing you know you will be like me, divorced and scarcely a family prayer in a month. Not really. You have a strong marriage and good traditions. But the feeling of being okay with just having happy and good kids rather than a bevy of LDS status symbols is surely a good step for you. I’ve been having the same thoughts lately. I don’t know how old your kids are, but my oldest is 16. I try my hardest to make sure she follows what I think is the right path. But the truth is that even at 16, all I can do is guide her. She’s old enough that she will be making her own choices and developing her own opinions not matter what I tell her at home. It is good to reinforce certain ideas and behavior, but at some point, the bird leaves the nest and you hope they learn to fly before hitting the turf. It is a very powerless feeling, but that’s part of the process. oh and give your wife a break. It aint easy taking care of kids every day. bedti:)mes can be rough at my house, so I can see not feeling in the mood to kneel down after yelling at the kids for the 15th time to turn off the TV. (maybe that’s just my house?
Everything is as it should be. We gave up on family prayer entirely. I became so tired of the repetition. My last daughter is 16 and she is doing just fine without the enforced ritual. Not to say we never pray, but it is a more as needed basis, which works better for us. SilentDawning wrote:I’ve been having some highly unusual thoughts lately…Years ago, I read an article that indicated what was the highest correlated variable with activity in kids who grew up in the Church. The answer — personal prayer, and specifically, the ability of the kids to provide themselves with their own spiritual experiences…Well, this evening, they went to bed, and usually I feel angst that no prayer happened. But
this time, my thoughts were “I don’t really care if they grow up to be spiritual anymore; as long as they are good people…that’s enough”. I then visualized a future in which my kids are less active Mormons, but successful in their careers, kind, caring people who live good lives, with religion on the periphery, as it’s becoming with my self this last year and a half. And I felt Ok with it — for about 15 minutes…And now here I sit wondering what the heck is going on with me. I never used to have thoughts like this and well…I think I actually believe this about 40% right now. Spiritual degeneracy in action?I don’t think these thoughts are really scary or spiritual degeneracy at all, if some people feel like their religion requires them to sacrifice too much of their own happiness and fulfilment then maybe it’s just not the best possible path for them or maybe they should simply pay less attention to it and do what seems best to them. Many LDS children will inevitably become inactive as adults no matter how much their parents try to influence them to be good obedient Mormons. Personally, I think this says more about the Church and how demanding it has become than it does about parents supposedly doing something terribly wrong in the way they raised their children.
It seems like religion and spirituality should ideally complement and add more meaning and value to peoples’ lives but in our case it too often feels more like a heavy burden and distraction we are supposed to endure simply because it is supposedly so “true” and right. That’s why I don’t see why having a more laid-back attitude about it would be any kind of tragedy at all because some of the unnecessary stress and costs in terms of time, money, effort, guilt-trips, etc. can really add up over a lifetime if you let them.
This is a good post – and good responses. I concur with what has been said already. I have also come to the conclusion that I no longer care and I no longer strive to make my kids “good mormons” rather I am trying to guide them to become good people.
About a month ago, jwald and I had the conversation, that it is no longer our focus to have our kids go on missions and get married in the temple. If it happens it happens, but we aren’t basing our parenting success on it – or our kids “spiritual” journey and capacity by it. It’s been a good for us to talk about it and admit that there is more to this life than missions and temple marriage.
We still try to read “something” like scriptures and have family prayer daily. I think there is value in it, but, it doesn’t always happen, and I find that I don’t stress about it nearly as much as I use to. — and yeah SD, if I’m not home, it NEVER happens. It’s not that jwald doesn’t care – I just think she sees it like chores or taking out the garbage or doing dishes or whatever, the whole family prayer is my job and if I’m gone, it can wait until tomorrow.
🙂 DevilsAdvocate wrote:Many LDS children will inevitably become inactive as adults no matter how much their parents try to influence them to be good obedient Mormons. Personally, I think this says more about the Church and how demanding it has become than it does about parents supposedly doing something terribly wrong in the way they raised their children.
This is a topic very close to my heart right now, and I have spent a lot of time pondering the results of encouraging kids to do all the right things mainly to appear “acceptable” to LDS society. I know “ending up in the right place” or “making good life choices” is also a big part of the concern, it has just hit me lately that often the child views the situation as “appearing acceptable.”
My thoughts along this line are tied to my posts in the other thread today, I think the conviction simply must lead the actions. I don’t see it working well any other way.
From the people I am close to I see a MUCH better chance of continued activity or association with the church through rough times when the expectations were lower growing up. It may sound odd at first, but when there was less pressure to do everything exactly right in their youth – I see members more likely to give the church a break when they discover all the little details don’t align with the perfect precision that they had come to expect. It looks like a situation of “you expected perfection out of me — I don’t see the perfection in you” and they’re gone. The cases where members are able to digest some of the unsavory history or imperfect lines of doctrine they generally were given a more relaxed attitude about church when they were young.
I think teaching the two great commandments is a wonderful way to go. The operations of the church can always be put into that framework, and I think a healthy attitude of “we do what we can” with flexibility may be the best path to set kids on while they’re young. Not saying that won’t lead to regular prayer, study, FHE, etc. Just sayin if it doesn’t happen like clockwork they shouldn’t get down on themselves about it. The desires of the heart are what’s important.
DevilsAdvocate wrote:Many LDS children will inevitably become inactive as adults no matter how much their parents try to influence them to be good obedient Mormons. Personally, I think this says more about the Church and how demanding it has become than it does about parents supposedly doing something terribly wrong in the way they raised their children.
I remember reading that the JW’s have the lowest rate of retention among kids born/raised in the church. If we were to speculate at the causes, I assume many of the reasons would apply to ourselves as well.
I wish I knew what would be the best upbringing for my kids. Each child is different and learns and responds in different ways. Even if I could accurately read what approach a child needs I am limited in my ability to become that. I am me. DW and I are collectively the best and the worst that our children have, but (for better and for worse) our children will always have us.
Thanks Roy, also valid points. Richard Bushman made the comment that the children of intellectuals don’t fare so well…. I think it is in part because we are at peace wherever they end up, as long as they are good people, as Silent Dawning pointed out. I think this can be a good approach. Personally I feel a paradigm shift is needed in religion today. We need to transcend the old ways of doing things. I think the most joy comes from maintaining every good thing from our heritage, laying aside the hurtful or extraneous, and add the new good we discover.
Enoch wrote:Richard Bushman made the comment that the children of intellectuals don’t fare so well…. I think it is in part because we are at peace wherever they end up, as long as they are good people, as Silent Dawning pointed out. I think this can be a good approach.
Although I don’t seek it, I’m described as an intellectual over and over again by different people throughout my life. There are times when I think it’s a curse, really. And based on some of the comments of some Church leaders (like BKP’s comment that the biggest threats within the Church come from certain groups, including intellectuals), I think it at times encourages this feeling of being a unicorn/alien in the Church.
Enoch also mentioned that it’s time to try new ways of doing things. I agree wholeheartedly. I think this is part of being a so-called intellectual — one questions, reinvents, challenges the status quo. I don’t STRIVE to be this way — I just AM!
Last week was the hardest day at Church I’ve had in a while. I realized I don’t want a calling, but without one I’m bored to the hilt– a strange conundrum. I see the whole experience much differently now than I used to, and at times, forget that others are TBM and don’t share the same thoughts I do about it. And then I make an off-center comment and get a funny look. Doesn’t happen much, but it HAS happened occasionally.
But the hardest part is keeping my kids interested while we sit in that pew forcing them to be still and engaged while adult speakers give adult talks on adult topics as if the kids don’t exist in the room. They complain about how bored they are; my 8-year old son is watching the clock like a hawk, and I’m finding it harder and harder to come up with good reasons why they should be investing so much of the rest of their life in that meeting….
I feel SO DISHEARTENED right now. At one time, the Church was a source of pride, comfort and stability for me. Now it feels like a huge thorn in my side and I feel at a loss about how to be a father to my children when it comes to religion.
I am a man without a philosophy. And based on how I felt last week, a man without a philosophy is lost.
SilentDawning wrote:
I am a man without a philosophy. And based on how I felt last week, a man without a philosophy is lost.I know how you feel. And for some strange reason, it seems to be at its worst for me on Monday mornings. When I think I’ve found a middle way, my family or my church gives me the message that it’s not good enough. The responsibility to find something that works and to make it work seems overwhelming.
I have some philosophy, mingled with scripture. Joking aside, I really do think we have much potential to support each other in constructing a new way to look at things. I systematize theology a bit compulsively, so welcome conversation. Silent Dawning, your concerns prompt me to post a paper I wrote up, “On Love and Lying”.
http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2314
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.