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This is an interesting discussion. I’m a recovering addict from porn and masturbation. I will be turning 39 this March and my addiction had started sometime in my preteens. This is going to be long, so please bear with me. I was baptized at 8, but my conversion to the church was more of mental and social conversion. I prayed a few years after I was baptized, but it eventually got to the point I mainly if I wanted something bad enough, not because I wanted a spiritual relationship with Heavenly Father. I was caught by my parent with porn three times, but I still didn’t admit I had an addiction. My parents told me if I was caught again with porn I would be kicked out. They were patient with me. Due to the addiction and just getting bored with going to church, I became inactive. I was nineteen around this time. I had graduated from high school the same year.
Sometime after I became inactive a girl from church (I was interested in her for awhile, but she turned me down when I asked her out), invited me to an outdoor young single adult activity. I began getting to know the people at that activity, receiving some advice from a guy that became a good friend of mine on how to live more of a spiritual life in the church. From then on, I began praying more regularly and studying the Book of Mormon more often. I got home from a church fireside and told my parents I wanted to serve a mission. My late aunt was visiting and she got to hear the news also. When I told my family, I broke down in tears. The Spirit had told me my decision was the right on and I knew the gospel and church were true. Now, since I had a spiritual conversion of Heavenly Father, the gospel, and the church, I thought my problems with addiction were all over with. From that moment on, I received some help from my bishop how to overcome my sexual addictions. He was a kind man that did his best to help me, but he was a little too strict for my taste. Unfortunately, he suggested I read The Miracle of Forgiveness. Wow! Although Kimball had some good advice in this book, much of the other advice came across too harsh. Back then my It was comforting to know that, according to Kimball’s son, Spencer wishes he got too harsh in many of his comments. Anyway, I was able to stop watching porn, but I couldn’t stop masturbating no matter how hard I tried. My black-and-white, pat-and-white faith and OCD often fueled the guilt and shame, making life hell for me.
I wasn’t honest with my bishop about my lapses with masturbation and I had served an honorable mission in the Nevada Las Vegas West Mission from April 22, 1998–April 20, 2000. During the first two months of my mission I hadn’t masturbated at all. I thought I was finally free from my sexual addiction. It didn’t last. One day in my companion’s and my little two-story missionary house, on on a nice sunny day, I was upstairs getting ready to study my scriptures and my companion was downstairs eating breakfast. I got a sexual fantasy in my head and I masturbated. I was angry at myself. The guilt and shame that I hadn’t felt in years over my sexual addiction returned. Eventually my addiction to masturbation came back. I was hardly around porn, so porn wasn’t so much of an issue. I told my mission president about it from time to time and eventually the addiction had become so bad I had to see a counselor in the LDS Social Services. He was able to offer some good advice how to overcome the addiction through his understanding of mental health and church teachings, but he wasn’t able to really help me get the religious obsession of OCD under control and help me to feel comfortable with being a LDS sexual being. But through my mission I was able to develop more of a relationship with the Savior and a stronger relationship with Heavenly Father.
I came home from my mission and was released by my stake president. At first after being released, I didn’t feel anything. Then when I was out in the foyer and the stake president was telling my parents how much I had grown spiritually. While he was doing that, I broke down in tears. I knew the Lord had accepted of my mission, despite some problems.
I hadn’t masturbated in a couple weeks after I got back from my mission, but I soon lapsed and masturbated. Eventually I completely relapsed to my porn and masturbation addiction. These were fueled by my mental disorders. Some bishops were able to get me a little help with these issues, but still not much. I started seeing a counselor and was put on medication to get help with my mental disorders.
Long story short, after a long time I am doing very well in recovery from my addiction. Now I feel great being an LDS sexual being. I hardly ever watch porn or masturbate now. I listen to addiction recovery mp3s daily along with scripture study to help with the recovery process. Through this experience and my faith transition, I’ve been able to gain a much closer relationship with Jesus Christ than I ever have been before. The church has gotten somewhat better with how it teaches and deal with sexuality, but it has ways to go. Addiction and addiction recovery are complex issues, just like many issues if life.
Just thought I would share that with the rest of you.
ILC77 said: Quote:Addiction and addiction recovery are complex issues, just like many issues if life.
I completely agree.
Have you ever used the Church addiction recovery program?
What was your impression.
Some of the biggest problems I see with treating the occasional viewing of porn/nudity as an addiction, self-defeating behavior, or even a bad habit in general are simply the lack of very serious negative consequences in many cases and that characterizing it this way suggests that this is unusual or abnormal in a misleading way when in reality it is perfectly natural and to be expected that the majority of men are going to like seeing naked women/sex. It seems like some of the success of 12-step programs and other attempts to modify people’s behavior in a lasting way largely depends on people genuinely wanting to stop but in the case of viewing porn/nudity it seems like, deep down, many men don’t really want to stop to begin with and furthermore they feel that if they don’t stop that nothing bad is going to happen as a direct result. For example, if someone is a compulsive gambler they could literally fail to pay their bills and lose their house. Smoking, drug and alcohol abuse, and even compulsive overeating can literally kill people decades early. But in the case of porn/nudity for many of these supposed porn “addicts” we are basically talking about a few minutes here and there and something that often has little or no tangible impact on their lives. Even the threat of divorce is not enough to stop it because I see that case as being similar to the way people don’t worry that much about the possibility that they could die in a car crash largely because they have already driven to and from work so many times without any problems. Similarly even if you can manage to convince men it is wrong because God supposedly said so, it supposedly exploits and objectifies people in a unfair way, etc. that won’t necessarily stop it similar to to the way that having people agree in principle that they should improve their diet and exercise habits doesn’t mean they will because the general sentiment is that can all wait until tomorrow but right now the natural instinct is to indulge and/or take it easy.
And all the hype and pseudoscience threatening scary sounding side-effects regarding brain chemistry, impotence, etc. doesn’t change the fact that many men’s own real-life experiences with this have been mostly or entirely positive. Basically the reasons to stop (fear of others finding out and disapproving, guilt-trips, etc.) are just not nearly as compelling in real life to many men as the reasons to continue to view porn/nudity. I’m sure some of the Church leaders, radical feminists, and other moral crusaders mean well with this but to be honest I don’t think many of them realize how much of an uphill battle this really is to think that some of the over-the-top rhetoric and demonization of porn is ever going to make much of a positive difference. In fact I think the more the Church talks about how bad and unacceptable viewing porn/nudity supposedly is the more it will backfire and end up doing more harm than good overall.
It sounds like as many as 60-70% of LDS men continue to view porn/nudity occasionally which is similar to the national average anyway. So it’s not like all the guilt-trips have done much to stop it or even reduce it it in a noticable way. If anything I think this actually makes porn more interesting to many LDS men than it would be otherwise because of the secrecy and forbidden nature surrounding it. As far as I can tell repeatedly telling men they are unworthy over this mostly increases the chances that they will feel discouraged and often drop out of the Church sometimes before serving a mission or getting married which does not bode well for the Church’s future when there are already almost two active LDS women for every one active LDS man. And after marriage the actual results of this approach can be even worse for the Church if they really care about families as much as they claim because it basically encourages women to take it personally and judge men relatively harshly sometimes to the point of divorce by setting the unrealistic expectation that this should never happen, that it is so terrible and inexcusable, etc.
I have a friend that just reached out to me and what I gather is that he looked at porn (or at least naked pictures) and then went through the 12 step church program and has been “clean” for more than a year. But his wife is now saying that she wanted a man worthy of being a GA and he is no longer that in her eyes. She isn’t asking for a divorce but she in essence has as she has asked him to move out and only see each other as she occasionally hands the kids off to him. It is so sad. The wife has upset many in the ward by preaching the most TBM standards (snide comments about what brand of modest clothing are not living the gospel). The guy is a GREAT guy. As nice and helpful as can be. It makes me so sad. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
DevilsAdvocate wrote:Some of the biggest problems I see with treating the occasional viewing of porn/nudity as an addiction, self-defeating behavior, or even a bad habit in general are simply the lack of very serious negative consequences in many cases and that characterizing it this way suggests that this is unusual or abnormal in a misleading way when in reality it is perfectly natural and to be expected that the majority of men are going to like seeing naked women/sex. It seems like some of the success of 12-step programs and other attempts to modify people’s behavior in a lasting way largely depends on people genuinely wanting to stop but in the case of viewing porn/nudity it seems like, deep down, many men don’t really want to stop to begin with and furthermore they feel that if they don’t stop that nothing bad is going to happen as a direct result.
For example, if someone is a compulsive gambler they could literally fail to pay their bills and lose their house. Smoking, drug and alcohol abuse, and even compulsive overeating can literally kill people decades early. But in the case of porn/nudity for many of these supposed porn “addicts” we are basically talking about a few minutes here and there and something that often has little or no tangible impact on their lives. Even the threat of divorce is not enough to stop it because I see that case as being similar to the way people don’t worry that much about the possibility that they could die in a car crash largely because they have already driven to and from work so many times without any problems. Similarly even if you can manage to convince men it is wrong because God supposedly said so, it supposedly exploits and objectifies people in a unfair way, etc. that won’t necessarily stop it similar to to the way that having people agree in principle that they should improve their diet and exercise habits doesn’t mean they will because the general sentiment is that can all wait until tomorrow but right now the natural instinct is to indulge and/or take it easy.
And all the hype and pseudoscience threatening scary sounding side-effects regarding brain chemistry, impotence, etc. doesn’t change the fact that many men’s own real-life experiences with this have been mostly or entirely positive. Basically the reasons to stop (fear of others finding out and disapproving, guilt-trips, etc.) are just not nearly as compelling in real life to many men as the reasons to continue to view porn/nudity. I’m sure some of the Church leaders, radical feminists, and other moral crusaders mean well with this but to be honest I don’t think many of them realize how much of an uphill battle this really is to think that some of the over-the-top rhetoric and demonization of porn is ever going to make much of a positive difference. In fact I think the more the Church talks about how bad and unacceptable viewing porn/nudity supposedly is the more it will backfire and end up doing more harm than good overall.
It sounds like as many as 60-70% of LDS men continue to view porn/nudity occasionally which is similar to the national average anyway. So it’s not like all the guilt-trips have done much to stop it or even reduce it it in a noticable way. If anything I think this actually makes porn more interesting to many LDS men than it would be otherwise because of the secrecy and forbidden nature surrounding it. As far as I can tell repeatedly telling men they are unworthy over this mostly increases the chances that they will feel discouraged and often drop out of the Church sometimes before serving a mission or getting married which does not bode well for the Church’s future when there are already almost two active LDS women for every one active LDS man. And after marriage the actual results of this approach can be even worse for the Church if they really care about families as much as they claim because it basically encourages women to take it personally and judge men relatively harshly sometimes to the point of divorce by setting the unrealistic expectation that this should never happen, that it is so terrible and inexcusable, etc.
I agree DA. While I think an actual porn addiction (if such a thing does exist) or very frequent viewing of hardcore porn could seriously affect an individual and his or her family, I don’t think that type of viewing is the norm. Using your gambling example, buying an occasional lottery ticket with spare change is not the same as visiting a casino regularly and going into debt to pay for one’s gambling. We could likewise use alcohol – not everyone who has ever had a beer is an alcoholic. I don’t think demonizing porn tot he extent some are is the answer to the problem and probably only creates other problems. (This opinion is given free of charge and you get what you pay for.)
LookingHard wrote:I have a friend that just reached out to me and what I gather is that he looked at porn (or at least naked pictures) and then went through the 12 step church program and has been “clean” for more than a year. But his wife is now saying that she wanted a man worthy of being a GA and he is no longer that in her eyes. She isn’t asking for a divorce but she in essence has as she has asked him to move out and only see each other as she occasionally hands the kids off to him. It is so sad. The wife has upset many in the ward by preaching the most TBM standards (snide comments about what brand of modest clothing are not living the gospel). The guy is a GREAT guy. As nice and helpful as can be. It makes me so sad.
This is truly sad, LH.
DarkJedi wrote:I agree DA. While I think an actual porn addiction (if such a thing does exist) or very frequent viewing of hardcore porn could seriously affect an individual and his or her family, I don’t think that type of viewing is the norm. Using your gambling example, buying an occasional lottery ticket with spare change is not the same as visiting a casino regularly and going into debt to pay for one’s gambling. We could likewise use alcohol – not everyone who has ever had a beer is an alcoholic. I don’t think demonizing porn tot he extent some are is the answer to the problem and probably only creates other problems. (This opinion is given free of charge and you get what you pay for.)
I tend to agree in general with both DJ and DA. Growing up I always wondered what the difference was between a pervert and a healthy developing teenager.
I also tried to stop M before and during the mission. I read Miracle of Forgiveness but apparently didn’t take it too personally. My level of religiosity is probably lower than some and I have an easier time justifying it to myself.
Over the years that I have been married – my wife and I have grown more open in our discussions. We have agreed that there are times when we cannot be intimate with each other and in those times M could be an appropriate stop gap measure (as apposed to pent up desire and possible resentment).
So I ask myself, if M might be acceptable to help get through periods of a few months without my wife then why was it such a taboo in the first 25 years without my wife?
I really do appreciate any effort to help people with self-defeating behaviors (perhaps the inability to stick to a budget might be included in this) and/or addictions. On the other hand – if we are labeling normal sexual development an addiction/SDB then we can be causing pain and anguish were it needn’t exist.
One of the best articles that I have seen on this subject was discussed in the following thread:
http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=6664&hilit=best+article+porn Two mission presidents I’ve known told me that they thought a good 90%+ of male missionaries M. regularly. One told me that missionaries viewing pornography on the mission is pretty common too, although I didn’t ask him how that happens. I wouldn’t be surprised if missionaries can find a way around any filters on their tablets. For these two MPs porn and M were expected and they didn’t really seem to lay on the guilt because of it. I’ve heard bishops in my stake say that if porn and M were big sins there would be literally nobody to pass the sacrament.
I don’t know what it means for the definition of “addiction” if 80%+ of men are addicted to anything. Don’t get me wrong – I think porn is bad and I think M is natural (e.g. not bad) and I am against porn – but I don’t think we as a church or as a country (US) know how to address it.
Roadrunner wrote:Two mission presidents I’ve known told me that they thought a good 90%+ of male missionaries M. regularly. One told me that missionaries viewing pornography on the mission is pretty common too, although I didn’t ask him how that happens. I wouldn’t be surprised if missionaries can find a way around any filters on their tablets. For these two MPs porn and M were expected and they didn’t really seem to lay on the guilt because of it.
I’ve heard bishops in my stake say that if porn and M were big sins there would be literally nobody to pass the sacrament.
I don’t know what it means for the definition of “addiction” if 80%+ of men are addicted to anything. Don’t get me wrong – I think porn is bad and I think M is natural (e.g. not bad) and I am against it – but I don’t think we as a church or as a country (US) know how to address it.
If missionaries are viewing porn and “M” regularly, that is pretty wild, considering the stake I came from. Prior to going on a mission, YM were asked VERY direct questions. How they could get past that interview would require some pretty interesting mental gymnastics,…or perhaps the interviews differ wildly depending on which stake you are coming from.
And, perhaps they have also lapsed back into the practice.
But, lest we all all forget, according to the church, “M” is sinful, and at one time, enough to keep a missionary off of his mission. I know of a YM, for example, who couldn’t seem to get past it and be clean for the required 90 day period (for whatever reason that was the period of time). This YM was a wonderful
and honestYM,…and he didn’t go on a mission because he had a too many slips in there he gave up on the option. Oh well. One is honest and stays home, many others are not honest and go. Go figure….
Minyan Man wrote:Rob4Hope, thanks for the TedTalk video. It was very interesting. It is one of those presentations I will have to think about for
a while to get the full impact. The talk seems to be based on academic research & study. When you are in the middle of your
alcohol or drug addition, all academics are gone or don’t make sense. Your whole goal was to continue with your lifestyle. I
thought it was working for me. I thought I was fooling everyone around me. Any suggestion I was an alcoholic kicked in my
reaction or strategy, to convince you I was not. I could accept that I may be depressed. But not a sick alcoholic. The stigma kicks
in with addition.
I’m not sure about creating a “rat paradise”. It is turning out that there are a lot of kids in the rich suburbs that are using alcohol or heroin now. Grantide they are damaged in other ways than just economically. I have to think more about that.
MM,…congrats on sobriety mate. That is really wonderful, and I mean that in the most sincere ways.
I recall the Doctor’s Opinion from the AA Big Book. He said there were 2 things that happened: a mental fixation, and the manifestation of an allergy that created craving when triggered. From the good Dr., the solution was a complete “psychic change”, and Bill W. and Dr. Bob both felt that the 12 steps would bring about that change. “12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps…..” So, the whole goal was to create a spiritual awakening. From this perspective, I can see the reasons why the church would emphasis so much the “read scriptures, say prayers….” type of thing. But for many, that spiritual awakening doesn’t quite happen,…and they flounder.
Its that floundering that makes such a mess.
I can only speak from a narrow perspective,…but it is accurate for some. If we are in a horrible environment that is devoid of love and affection, drugs or other addictions look pretty good. You might say: “Why would anyone want to throw away their life for a compulsive behavior or chemical addiction?” I would counter with: “What have they got better?”
Money or affluence doesn’t always fill the void inside. The position of the AA folks (who have the experience to back it–which I deeply respect) is that GOD CAN and WILL IF HE WERE ALLOWED. But for some, this doesn’t work because there is an underlying void that isn’t addressed.
I know, for example, that a small child will literally die,…as in stop living and have to be buried or otherwise have their body disposed of,…if they don’t receive physical touch. Dr. Sue Johnson, looking heavily at the work of John Bowlby found this to be absolutely true—and ignored for decades. Johnson has later found that the needs we have as children do NOT go away when we become adults: if you need touch as a child, …… <>….you need touch as an adult.
In the case of those who often turn to physical forms of addiction, like sexual addictions, there is a psychological hook–no doubt about that. But is the answer to isolate those people, making sure they abstain from affection and all other forms of physical contact (like sex) so they can dry out and “get control” of their lives? Nope. It ignores the fundamental needs they have as well. Physical touch is NOT always a sin.
I suggest in some of these 12 steps meetings that perhaps there should be a supervised exchange of hugs given. Wanna see a grown man weep like a child and tremble because someone FINALLY gave him a hug?…without freaking out about being a “fag” or a “pervert” or whatever derogatory terms fly around? Give the guy a hug.
I have given more than one grown person, male and female, a hug and felt them crumble in my arms and soul weep. Ever felt that happen? You know what it is like to feel another human being sucking in affection as though they are starving alive,….because they are,…for just being held and touched?
I know what that feels like. It isn’t funny. It isn’t pretty. Its heart breaking. And,…it is sacred grown more than any other I have ever seen or believe exists.
As a people, I believe North Americans are literally starving for human touch. I also believe that unless and until society acknowledges there are legitimate needs that “reading scriptures and saying prayers” will NOT satisfy, the problem will never fully be addressable….
An alcoholic who is in the DTs doesn’t need to be taken to an AA meeting; they need to be taken to a hospital.
A sex addict who is struggling because his body aches for dopamine and the other fill good drugs isn’t going to get those needs filled by reading more scriptures and Miracle of Forgiveness and all of that. Has anyone ever considered that maybe they need to be given a hug?
AHHHHHHH NO!!!!!!! THEY ARE ADDICTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My $0.02.
MM, thanks for asking. Several years ago I did use the church’s 12-step program. I went to a addiction recovery meeting at my stake center. It was uplifting, pretty interesting. There were some nice people there. My only complaint was that the people that went to the meeting only talked about alcohol, drug, and less embarrassing addictions. None brought up sexual addictions, so I didn’t feel comfortable bringing up my addiction. I took their recovery workbook home with me and used it for a little while. I have skimmed through a non-church 12-step addiction recovery book before, so it was similar, except it was more based on church teachings with quotes from General Authorities. I eventually filled the whole workbook out and stopped masturbating and watching porn for awhile, but, sure enough, I relapsed again. Long story short, so much of my relapsing was brought on with too often wanting to live my life perfectly. Even the church’s recovery program too often has pushed perfection. What’s helped me the most with my recovery, (I already mentioned addiction recovery hypnosis mp3 files and scripture study), is my faith transition, medication for my mental disorders–which has helped a lot with my addiction urges, and my hormones not going as fast now (the slower hormones are a blessing to me). Rob4Hope wrote:But, lest we all all forget, according to the church, “M” is sinful, and at one time, enough to keep a missionary off of his mission.
I think any honest bishop, SP, or MP will know that even the most stalwart of missionaries will relapse with masturbation. I can’t in good conscience keep someone off a mission because they do what every teenage boy in the world does on a daily basis. I don’t even ask and I’m pretty sure my SP doesn’t ask either. I heard on MP say – in the presence of a Q12 member – that he’d rather have a room full of “masturbating missionaries” who can actually converse with people than a “pure” YM who does nothing but play video games.
Back to the addiction topic: I recently asked a close pediatrician friend of mine about masturbation. He’s a devout born again Christian and probably lives a more strict life than many Mormons do. His opinion is that a daily dose of stress relief is a healthy thing and that it’s unhealthy to fixate on it and pile guilt on teenage boys. He laughed at the idea that masturbation without porn is a sexual addiction. That’s good enough for me. I realize this goes against what many of us were taught in the 1980s but I think the teachings about “self abuse” as the church puts it have changed – at least where I live.
Back to SDB and Addictions … SDB are often related to mental and emotional negative feedback loops. SDB can often be stopped by just acknowledging to oneself that there is a problem. Talking about the behavior and coming up with alternatives can be effective with SDB.
Addictions are different. People self-medicate. Looking at their drug of choice, oftentimes their underlying diagnosis is easier to discern — or so a psychiatrist friend told me years ago.
Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. We use the term OCD without really processing the definitions of those words. People obsess over things. They are compulsive. Neurologically, they lack impulse control in that area. The church too often tells OCD peeps to change their obsession to religion and their compulsion to prayer and scripture. That is no healthier than MB.
It is scary to me to see two LDS OCD people in a relationship. They each self-medicate through their obsessions and compulsions — trying to make their lives better. Too often, each looks at the other as WRONG. One could be over focused on sexuality. The other could over focused on religion. Both would be better served with Zoloft.
Ilovechrist77, I wouldn’t over think this very much. In AA we talk about Quote:progress rather than perfection
In the Church, we have the tendency to emphasize the perfection part before progress.None of us get through this life living a perfect life on ANY level.
That’s why we take the sacrament on Sunday.
Roadrunner wrote:Two mission presidents I’ve known told me that they thought a good 90%+ of male missionaries M. regularly. One told me that missionaries viewing pornography on the mission is pretty common too, although I didn’t ask him how that happens. I wouldn’t be surprised if missionaries can find a way around any filters on their tablets. For these two MPs porn and M were expected and they didn’t really seem to lay on the guilt because of it…I’ve heard bishops in my stake say that if porn and M were big sins there would be literally nobody to pass the sacrament…I don’t know what it means for the definition of “addiction” if 80%+ of men are addicted to anything. Don’t get me wrong – I think porn is bad and I think M is natural (e.g. not bad) and I am against porn – but I don’t think we as a church or as a country (US) know how to address it. Roadrunner wrote:Rob4Hope wrote:But, lest we all all forget, according to the church, “M” is sinful, and at one time, enough to keep a missionary off of his mission.
I think any honest bishop, SP, or MP will know that even the most stalwart of missionaries will relapse with masturbation. I can’t in good conscience keep someone off a mission because they do what every teenage boy in the world does on a daily basis. I don’t even ask and I’m pretty sure my SP doesn’t ask either. I heard on MP say – in the presence of a Q12 member – that he’d rather have a room full of “masturbating missionaries” who can actually converse with people than a “pure” YM who does nothing but play video games…I realize this goes against what many of us were taught in the 1980s but
I think the teachings about “self abuse” as the church puts it have changed – at least where I live.I guess I see this as simply yet another example of leadership roulette on display (a positive example for a change) more than something coming from the top in a coordinated way. Basically some leaders are more sensible, empathetic, pragmatic, etc. than others whereas others are old-school hardliners hell-bent on defending the letter-of-the-law at all costs so you never really know for sure what you are going to get when changing from one location to another.
I agree that that they haven’t directly condemned masturbation recently in a loud and clear way as much as Spencer W. Kimball, Boyd K. Packer, and other Church leaders did in the past but in the case of the dreaded porno Dallin H. Oaks reiterated the idea that it makes men in the Church unworthy in a recent Ensign article. And of all the things that Utah politicians could spend time worrying about they recently passed a resolution declaring that pornography is supposedly a “public health crisis” and when this was reported in the local news Jeffrey R. Holland made the following comments about it.
Quote:“Society must see this evil like the epidemic it is,” said Elder Jeffrey R. Holland, member of the LDS Church’s Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. “This ought to be seen like a public health crisis, like a war, like an infectious fatal epidemic, like a moral plague on the body politic that is maiming the lives of our citizens.”Only in Utah as far as American states go is this level of theocracy and blatantly obvious groupthink possible to maintain over such a wide area of influence and it really is the American state most like Saudi Arabia in more ways than one at this point. This is one reason why I think most Church leaders are basically just TBMs that have risen up through the ranks based on seniority and unwavering commitment to the Church rather than conscious and deliberate frauds mostly concerned with collecting as much tithing as possible the way some cynical critics claim because it doesn’t make sense why they would risk alienating so many members and investigators over being so strict and unforgiving about chastity and the WoW if the main thing they cared about was money.
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