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Personal update. I haven’t shared that much about this yet, so read if you are interested. It’s a bit long. My second son, who is smart but hates school, started sounding like he’s going to really make it work, going back to BYU-I and retrieving himself from academic probation. He’s at a 0.8 cumm GPA, so it would be a lot of work. Last semester was a 0.4 taking repeats of classes he didn’t do well in the first time. He actually did worse on the second try due to his lack of interest and follow through. He gives his two week notice at work, and gets his Ecclesiastical Endorsement. He’s ready to go.
We got home Wed, spent all evening packing the car, buying his parking pass, etc. We were going to drive to Idaho all day yesterday and 4 more hours today. Car is loaded. It’s after midnight. We go to bed. 10 minutes later, a knock at the door. He comes in and says we’d better turn the light on.
He says we’ve probably figured this out, but he’s not straight, he’s pansexual (I had to ask for clarification whether he said tran or pan). And he doesn’t believe in the church. God has never answered his prayers, so he says it’s dishonest to go there. Deja vu with a pansexual twist (my oldest son left the church & BYU his freshman year – said he hadn’t believed since age 16).
We talked to him for a couple hours. I pointed out that my biggest concern hands down is his grades and that he needs a plan for the future. Even if he switches to the community college, his study habits are the problem. I said it feels to me like he’s mixing up three things: identity, beliefs, and behaviors, and let’s deal with each separately. Identity is what it is. If he’s pansexual, fine, we won’t love him less. I clarified with him that he hasn’t ever actual been in any romantic relationship (which he said was true), so I said he’ll have to figure that out when he’s had some actual experience in relationships, but that’s something he’ll figure out in time.
With beliefs, I pointed out that everyone’s beliefs are unique to them, and again, that’s something he’ll work out in time. It’s easy to believe at 19 (as I did, BTW) that you have it all figured out, that you see what these fools haven’t yet discovered, but the reality is that there is good and bad in everyone, and the world is full of gray. I’m honestly not as worried about that.
His real problem is behavior (academic). I said this is the one thing that he needs to change right now. He’s making a decision to close off his future in a way that he can’t easily undo. If we (theoretically) “forced” him to go, he’d just flunk out again because he wants to flunk out. We told him to sleep on it, and that in the morning we’d talk again.
We get up, and he’s gone. I’m not panicked. I call him. He says, yeah, I didn’t tell you, but I didn’t actually quit my job. I’m at work all day.
So we made him a deal. Immediately, he’s paying for his own cell phone and car insurance via a direct transfer every month. Then we said he can either pay $200 per month in rent OR he can enroll in online classes that he pays for and we’ll defer rent while he’s pursuing education. We will reimburse tuition for any class he gets an A or B in.
Then I spent all evening with oldest son moving his things out finally. He hasn’t lived with us for 2 years (he lives locally with his girlfriend), but he’s been keeping his stuff in his room. It’s just a mess – dirty and clean clothes everywhere, and all he does is come in every couple days to play FIFA and sleep on our couch. I’m finally going to set up a home office for us!
If you made it through all of that, I’m impressed. I’m 0 for 2 on transitioning kids into adulthood. One to go, but so far, she’s a straight A student and has great friends, so I’m not that worried.
It sounds like it is good for him not to return to BYU-I. I think your response is also good. Regardless of what happens with work, school, sexuality, and so forth he just plain has to grow up at some point soon and take responsibility for his own life and the consequences – good and bad – of his decisions and behaviors. Good luck! I’m sorry to read about his situation, but I think you are handling it wisely. At this point, his future really is up to him to determine. Next step is we are going to get him in with a psychiatrist / clinical psychologist to see about possible anxiety. It could be behind the grades issues, and it doesn’t seem like “normal” behavior to pack the whole car and then announce you aren’t going. He struggles with change and is deeply introverted. We’ll see what a clinical psychologist can do for him. It sounds like you handled it very well…so I don’t know that you can say you’re 0 for 2, but I think I know how you feel as a parent. Is he very motivated by money that those incentives to pay for his classes if he gets As or B’s will do much for him?
I’m sorry he didn’t communicate or be upfront with you about quitting his job and just waiting the night of the drive to bring it up. That had to sting. Sometimes they get a bit rebellious and talk to their friends like parents are clueless, meanwhile being clueless about how to respect others, communicate, or plan for things.
They learn, that’s part of the transitioning thing that takes time.
How you handle it with him will be lasting impressions that I’m sure he will look back on and appreciate in the future.
Call me impressed. Your response was amazing. If one of my kids had popped open the door just before going to sleep, after having packed their life day, I am sure I would have blown a fuse. I might have calmed down but the initial response wouldn’t have been pretty. I am getting crabby in my old age.
I wish you and your family so much luck. I hoe you find a good psychologist. They can work miracles.
Hugs to you.
Carrie
It probably helped me be calm that we’ve been waiting for the other shoe to drop with him forever. He really just can’t sustain any effort in school. He loses interest and then starts in on self-defeating behaviors. The only reason we never considered therapy before is our own lack of experience with it. Neither of us has ever really been anxious or depressed or whatever. And frankly, my parents would have thought therapy was a waste of money. They are tough-minded depression-survivors. They think braces are a vanity. It wouldn’t shock me to find out that the pansexual thing is just a way he invented to get out of going to BYU-Idaho. He knows I’m an LGBT ally and that I don’t agree with the church’s stance on LGBT things, so it’s possible he thought I’d immediately say, “Oh, you’re X sexual orientation? Then no, you don’t have to do this thing you don’t want to do anyway.” But he could also be pansexual. Given the definition, I’m not sure there’s a 19 year old boy out there who isn’t! I am totally fine if he is. I just don’t think it’s mutually exclusive with being Mormon or going to BYU-I. Likewise with not believing. I was an atheist when I went to BYU. I just told people I didn’t believe in God. What were they going to do? Kick me out? If they had, then I’d have dealt with that. They didn’t, and eventually I felt differently. He can’t say it’s a lack of integrity to go there when he’s chosen to be dishonest about things. Just tell the truth. Let the chips fall. But he has a long history of lying to get out of doing work.
So, this week we’re working on finding him a good therapist, and we’ll see. I’m really hoping that he gets someone who can help him pass these classes at the levels I know he’s capable. He is very smart, without a doubt smarter than all his friends and most kids I meet who are 19, but he has no motivation academically and makes excuses to avoid it.
Is he open to a therapist, and willing to talk and engage with one? I really liked how you broke things out into identify, belief, and behavior. The last one is what the therapy should focus on. You could burn a lot of time and money on talking about the first 2…and those are not meaningless as they impact other things…but with therapy, there needs to be a goal in mind of what to accomplish and the therapist needs to know what direction to go on.
With the years of marriage therapy I went through…and 3 different therapists…I found out how broad their field is and it can take several sessions to focus in on what the real issue is.
I think you identified what needs to be addressed. Whether in or out of therapy offices…the direction and academics and behaviors need to get on a productive adulting track…while figuring out identity as he goes, or beliefs that get formed over time.
Is he on board with the way you framed it?
So far, so good. He is open to therapy. He had previously said he needed to go, but then he backed off. Then later he said he backed off because it’s expensive (which it is). We’ve consistently said he shouldn’t be worried about the expense (although our insurance is terrible as small business owners), so long as he’s making progress. It’s hard to explain, but I really am not worried about the sexuality or beliefs stuff with him. Maybe that’s because the other things are just so worrisome that there’s no room left, but maybe it’s because we went through this already with his brother leaving the church. The sexual orientation thing remains entirely theoretical, too, so maybe my feelings on that will change if and when confronted with the reality of a relationship. I like to hope not, but I’m not sure. Any time your kids are dating someone, it’s easy to be critical.
My children are 11 and 9. Reading this reminds me that parenting certainly won’t get any easier as they grow up. I really respect and admire how you have handled this. All other issues aside – your children are lucky to have you as a parent/guide/support in their lives. Roy
I just listened to this podcast today on Millennials. They crave emotional protection even more than physical protection. Some of this blames their psychological problems on smartphones. It was interesting. I’m not sure how much it applies to you Hawk, but worth a listen to Doug Fabrizio on RadioWest. That’s an interesting thought, MH. Life is interesting to me, and how these issues are new and generations have some unique challenges because of the world being what it is.
The solution is still love.
Angela, you are very intuitive and brilliant minded. You have separated out issues that could be detours or false barriers to helping and parenting. By that, I mean, you could be freaking out about “pansexual” or not going to a church school or laziness or some other things and miss the opportunities to love him and tell him that often.
But you have a way of framing it and categorizing the issues in a way that can compartmentalize stuff, and that really will help focus discussions on the most important things.
That can really really help and I think you are miles ahead of most parents. Because you are not freaking out about the wrong things.
It sounds like what you want is him to have a career path, education, and adult skills to provide for his future life so he can find happiness.
Because you love him and want him to be happy.
I’m sure you tell him that is the real underlying motivation. But he needs to hear that again and again.
The difficult part of being a parent is getting the kids to feel that what you do as a parent is out of love for them and not control or dictating their life for them. It has been most difficult for me when I do that and my kids don’t believe my intent and think they know more and they don’t trust me. That’s hard.
What you can’t control as a parent is how they will process it. Despite you wanting him to have an education and career, at some point no matter what you say or do, he has to make choices and do it, or feel consequences of not.
So the most appropriate thing it seems is to set the boundaries, give him loving advice, stick to the agreed boundaries of helping only so much and withholding help sometimes, make sure he knows you love him as he is and you are there to help him…and then let go and let him go figure it out. All the while staying close and reminding him he is loved.
You become a coach from the sidelines, and watch as they make the plays on the field and don’t always do it right.
In the end, he may come to a realization that the pansexual thing was a red herring. Not really the issue, though he wanted to make it that because it was something that could be talked about while avoiding the other issues.
Just some examples, but you probably get my point.
To try to sum my blathering:
1. You’re doing awesome as a parent, he is lucky to have you.
2. He has to figure things out for himself and he will make mistakes. It sucks watching that when it could be better.
3. He just needs to feel loved and supported so in the long run, however he works it out, he always knows mom is the best.
We had friends who had a son with serious problems and despite the dad as a bishop and a dentist and lots of money, and the mom the stake relief society president and successful business woman and book publisher and friends with Elder Ballard’s family (just an outstanding and active and loving parents) …the kid went off the deep end and into drugs and into a dark life and all they could do was set boundaries and let the kid feel the consequences of decisions.
Heartbreaking, but the story is never over.
The kid exhausted all excuses for his behaviors…and finally came back to mom asking for help. Got the help he needed, straightened up, went on a mission, and is very driven in life. Perhaps the same personality that led to the crash also leads to great things when on the right path.
It just takes time sometimes for them to find their path.
As a parent of kids these ages and seeing them figure things out and make mistakes, all I can say is that I want to love them and want them to know it. To this day, my family still has lots of issues and emotional struggles, but they all talk to me. Each one of my kids, they open up and talk to me. And I give advice, and sometimes try to shut my pie hole and not tell them how I feel about their world. But I’m there for them always.
Just some thoughts. Overall…I reiterate…you’re an impressive woman with a laser focus mind and great capacity. Your son is lucky to have you on his side.
Life is interesting. But it works out in the end.
Thanks, Heber13. It helps. We went to our first appt with his new therapist yesterday. I really liked her, but I can already tell that this was in large part a smoke screen, and we’ll see what happens next. If he doesn’t progress or do the work, she says she’ll cut him loose, but for now, we’re going to keep trying. He was very minimalist in what he said to her, and then his dad and I kept expanding on it. He was trying to frame it as if all his problems were with going to Idaho, but now that he doesn’t have to go, all is well. She asked if that’s a long term solution. I could tell my DH wasn’t happy with giving him that option, but my view is we should call his bluff. If he’s really only doing poorly because of Idaho, then he should be able to take classes at the community college and do well. My hypothesis is that he will still gets Ds and Fs because at the end of the day, he simply hasn’t addressed the real problem, whether it’s ADD or just poor study skills / executive function and utter lack of commitment. I was saying to his dad, it’s on his dime now not ours, and if he does just as poorly at community college as he has at BYU-Idaho, then fine, maybe he just flunks out until he decides he wants more for himself.
She was pretty aligned, which was helpful, about a few things:
1) that lots of 19 year olds with no experience are unsure about their sexuality, and he could be pansexual or not. She liked that we are neutral about it, not pressuring him to conform to anything, but letting him figure it out for himself.
2) she asked him whether religion was something that speaks to him or not right now, and he said he wasn’t sure how he felt about it. She said (as we did) that there’s time to figure that out. DH was pushing a bit more on “if you want to find out you’ll get an answer” which I more or less agree with, but I would phrase it quite differently: when it’s important to you, you’ll get an answer. I only have found religion relevant when my life is turning to crap or things are coming to a head.
3) she was completely in agreement about charging him for his phone & car insurance and also charging him either rent $200/mon OR waiving that if he takes classes at his own expense (which we will generously reimburse for any As or Bs). She looked impressed with that. Son is not very happy with that one, which tells me we are on the right track. Taking 2 online classes is slightly more than the cost of rent.
He made it sound like the anxiety was all in the last year since the BYU-I thing, but after we left I remembered how traumatic it was for him when we moved to AZ from SLC, and I emailed her about it. He was 7 years old at the time, and he started having a problem with wetting himself at school and even on vacation which is either a pretty traumatic response or a genetic issue (DH’s sibs had some bedwetting issues at least).
So we’ll see how things go for now, but so far, I don’t see that he’s taking it very seriously. He was again putting off his homework, taking extra shifts at work, underestimating how long the assignments would take, and frankly not reading past the first paragraph of the instructions.
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Our first son’s reasons for leaving the church and BYU were, in my husband’s opinion, our son just regurgitating my views about things, thinking I’d be an ally for him. I said not really. The stuff that bothered him isn’t the stuff that’s most important to me. He might have been disingenuous about it (probably was), but my views are my views. I think he feels some blame toward me for my views. All I’m saying is that I agree my son’s throwing out the baby with the bathwater and has chosen an easier path than dealing with stuff, but if I were a young person and all I knew of the church was what a 19 or 20 year old does now, I’d draw similar conclusions to what they have. I’m not 19. I’m nearly 50, and I have a lot more years of experience with the church and see that some of these shifts are somewhat recent, so that means I have more sunk cost and more belief in change, but I don’t like those things. I’m not going to accept the blame for what my sons conclude when the church continues to double down in an increasingly polarized country. That’s me losing twice.
Yeah, that’s kind of what the Radiowest podcast says. Kids are taking much longer to mature emotionally and grow into adulthood. I think you’re on the right track. My sister has a son, really intelligent, really shy, and really lazy. Scored >30 on ACT exam, but got lots of F’s in high school. He was going to go on a mission, got his call, and then changed his mind. My sister didn’t pressure him to go, acted much like you (but much more TBM outlook on life), and started charging him rent, etc just like you. He finally went back to jr college, got a 2 year degree in computer networking (he is so much more capable than that), but seems relatively happy.
Funny thing is sister has been listening to my podcast, which has opened her eyes to some stuff about the church. Polygamy with Brian Hales was very troubling for her, but it opened up a conversation with her son, and she found he doesn’t believe and stuff like polygamy really bothers him.
He could be so much more than he is, but functioning ok as 20-something adult.
In an interesting twist, one of the two online classes he’s choosing to take is a religion class. I’m sure it’s because I pointed out that religion classes are a cake walk, but bear in mind he has already failed it twice (basically quit doing the work 6 weeks in).
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