Seeking a sincere testimony

[Anonymous]

Hey, I’m mostly a lurker/rare-commenter here. Just wondering if there is anyone who actually is able to keep a testimony even in the face of dark Church history, statements made by past and current leaders, bigotry, lack of scientific evidence for the Flood, the BoM, etc… For months I’ve been trying to regain a testimony but honestly, I don’t know what the Spirit feels like. Maybe I’m not “perceptive” enough, maybe I’ve read too much “anti-mormon” literature, or maybe this religion is false.It’s to the point where opening my scriptures is a daunting task and I internally roll my eyes when hearing super TBM testimonies (“I know this is the one and true church”, etc). I am on the brink of leaving the church, which frightens me, for the community and belonging aspect.

I’m just wondering if there is anyone out there who still gets answers to prayers or still feels that the gospel is true even if the church is seriously flawed. Are there any talks or scriptures that inspire you? How do you recognize the Spirit?

[Anonymous]

vickzorz wrote:

Hey, I’m mostly a lurker/rare-commenter here. Just wondering if there is anyone who actually is able to keep a testimony even in the face of dark Church history, statements made by past and current leaders, bigotry, lack of scientific evidence for the Flood, the BoM, etc… For months I’ve been trying to regain a testimony but honestly, I don’t know what the Spirit feels like. Maybe I’m not “perceptive” enough, maybe I’ve read too much “anti-mormon” literature, or maybe this religion is false.It’s to the point where opening my scriptures is a daunting task and I internally roll my eyes when hearing super TBM testimonies (“I know this is the one and true church”, etc). I am on the brink of leaving the church, which frightens me, for the community and belonging aspect.

I’m just wondering if there is anyone out there who still gets answers to prayers or still feels that the gospel is true even if the church is seriously flawed. Are there any talks or scriptures that inspire you? How do you recognize the Spirit?

I feel that I do get “answers” to prayers, but they do not look like what I would have expected as a child. My understanding of what prayer is, what the spirit is, what answers may be have all matured. Not saying that I know more than others, but I now know how God reaches me and communicates with ME specifically.

I do feel that the Gospel is truth — and that truth is the Gospel. I used to think that this is defined by what I hear in church, I now feel that it is defined by what IS. Everyone in church is mortal, bless their hearts they can only opine on their own understanding (this includes me). We are all striving to learn more and understand more deeply.

There are many talks and scriptures that inspire me. There are also many that don’t. I no longer worry about taking them all or none, such a demand is unrealistic and would suggest that I don’t need to think for myself – which is wholly and fundamentally against a primary message of the Gospel as I understand it. Our job is to “study it out in your mind”, “seek further light and knowledge”, and know that “the glory of God is intelligence …a man will get nearer to God by obtaining more knowledge in this life.”

A fundamental difference between my assumptions as a child and my understanding as a budding “adult” is around the idea that we can learn what we need to learn on earth in a neat and orderly way. Today I understand that the entire process of mortal education is messy. It is messy by design and necessity. To gain the real knowledge/experience we need to get in and get our hands dirty. We need to understand human nature, the conflicts of different personality types, that people understand and come to knowledge in different ways, and that NO rule can apply uniformly to all people. Wanting to see things neat and tidy is a flawed and human desire, to gain real knowledge requires effort and learning to deal with ambiguity. Most often in order to improve something (think of a house or a car) we need to tear it down and “make it worse” before it can get better.

[Anonymous]

Sorry I am in the same boat. There is no way I can believe like I once did. To much evidence to the contrary. Maybe you are trying to gain a testimony of something that does not exist. I believe things that are true tend to be self evident. I do not need to gain a testimony of gravity. I can not see it but it is obvious that it exists and effects my life. I do not have wake up each day praying for gravity to remain a part of my life. If I have to work so hard to believe something that is so elusive As a real testimony of the church I have determined it is not worth the effort.

[Anonymous]

A sincere testimony of what is the question.If I understand Paul’s writings each of us has different gifts and I assume among those gifts are the gifts of the spirit of testimony. I believe there are people who receive a confirming answer for this church. I also believe as I listen to their life stories that the confirming has a myriad of ways that it arrives. Which means even if I had a confirming experience, you may not or yours might not be like mine.

I am also convinced that the confirming that some people receive isn’t always related to the BofM or Joseph Smith. Again in listening to others long enough I realize their anchors in the church are broad and varied. But we don’t see it. We repeat phrases, we are taught traditional language – so it sounds like a whole bunch of people have this amazing – prayer reception moment where an incredible life changing dawning happens. We also assume that once we’ve had that or they’ve had that – the game is over. Just stay the course. I am not convinced of that. I support Orson’s thought of it being a bit messier and longer than an a one time answer.

I guess I’m lucky because my spiritual connection to the church is with Christ, it has been for as long as I can remember, this gives me a nice retreat when some of the other stuff comes up. It’s not flawless but it helps. I also have had my love of Christ and spirit nourished through hymns, books, and works outside of the church. I love some of the church works, but my spirit has soared under the works of Catherine Marshall and Mitch Albom. I grew up in California and love the ancient Catholic Missions that cover the state. In short my testimony is based on more than the standard LDS model. So I say “Yes” you can seek, build and create a sincere personal testimony. The best place to begin is Know Thyself. I bet if you look there is already one there. Even if it’s just a bud.

[Anonymous]

vickzorz wrote:

Hey, I’m mostly a lurker/rare-commenter here. Just wondering if there is anyone who actually is able to keep a testimony even in the face of dark Church history, statements made by past and current leaders, bigotry, lack of scientific evidence for the Flood, the BoM, etc… For months I’ve been trying to regain a testimony but honestly, I don’t know what the Spirit feels like. Maybe I’m not “perceptive” enough, maybe I’ve read too much “anti-mormon” literature, or maybe this religion is false.It’s to the point where opening my scriptures is a daunting task and I internally roll my eyes when hearing super TBM testimonies (“I know this is the one and true church”, etc). I am on the brink of leaving the church, which frightens me, for the community and belonging aspect.

I’m just wondering if there is anyone out there who still gets answers to prayers or still feels that the gospel is true even if the church is seriously flawed. Are there any talks or scriptures that inspire you? How do you recognize the Spirit?

Yes, I feel the spirit, even after not paying tithing to the church (but to those in need)… & to my surprise, even while having a little buzz (after many years of sobriety mind you).

Yesterday, I had a really cool spiritual experience during a yoga meditation. I often feel the spirit when I’m up hiking – which I miss & can’t wait until it’s pretty again so I can go again – I miss my outdoor temple!

I think the spirit is unique… you will feel inspired differently than I would, depending on how you resonate.

Jesus taught, “The kingdom (realm/experience) of God is within you.”

My testimony is so much stronger than it’s ever been – but I’m not talking about a “church approved” testimony.

I took the advise about searching for truth whereever it’s found, seriously, as well as the commandment to not have any other gods before God.

I am caring less & less what others think about my “salvation” because I realize they aren’t part of the equation.

It’s personal – between God & me. And it’s evolving. The only thing I could say, “I know beyond a shadow of a doubt” about is that I don’t know… that everything I or anybody else thinks is subjective & limited – & that we’re works in progress.

I don’t take the scripture or ANYTHING too literally. It’s parables – intended to be symbolically “likened to me.”

I’ve redefined many common church words, so that when I hear what used to feel like preachy put-downs, they now feel inspiring to me.

No doubt, I have a long way to go, but I’ve also come a long way over the last few years.

It also has helped to have some boundaries with church involvement – everything in moderation, you know!

[Anonymous]

vickzorz wrote:

Hey, I’m mostly a lurker/rare-commenter here. Just wondering if there is anyone who actually is able to keep a testimony even in the face of dark Church history, statements made by past and current leaders, bigotry, lack of scientific evidence for the Flood, the BoM, etc… For months I’ve been trying to regain a testimony but honestly, I don’t know what the Spirit feels like. Maybe I’m not “perceptive” enough, maybe I’ve read too much “anti-mormon” literature, or maybe this religion is false.It’s to the point where opening my scriptures is a daunting task and I internally roll my eyes when hearing super TBM testimonies (“I know this is the one and true church”, etc). I am on the brink of leaving the church, which frightens me, for the community and belonging aspect.

I’m just wondering if there is anyone out there who still gets answers to prayers or still feels that the gospel is true even if the church is seriously flawed. Are there any talks or scriptures that inspire you? How do you recognize the Spirit?

Absolutely. I have a testimony of Faith inspite of evidence not seen or in some cases bad evidence seen a plenty.

Great Talk – Brad Wilcox – Grace is suffcient. Type it into google and watch the video from BYUTV

[Anonymous]

Quote:

I’m just wondering if there is anyone out there who still gets answers to prayers or still feels that the gospel is true even if the church is seriously flawed.

Yes, absolutely – and FAR more people in the Church fit that description than you would believe, I think.

Quote:

Are there any talks or scriptures that inspire you?

Yes. There are lots of things that are uplifting, enlightening, sanctifying, etc. – and some of them are in scriptures and church talks. Pres. Uchtdorf immediately comes to mind, as does Elder Wirthlin.

Quote:

How do you recognize the Spirit?

I don’t know. I focus more on “the fruits of the Spirit” and trying to follow what I feel is right. It’s all I’ve got that is practical and not merely theoretical.

I have what I believe to be a strong testimony, but it’s mine and doesn’t look like that of anyone else I know. It has some of the same elements as others, but it has some that are uniquely mine. I’ve spent years building and remodeling it, and it’s now what I can call my own home – even as I expect to continue to remodel it throughout my life.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

is anyone who actually is able to keep a testimony even in the face of dark Church history, statements made by past and current leaders, bigotry, lack of scientific evidence for the Flood, the BoM, etc.

When taking the definition of testimony from merriam-webster as “a public profession of religious experience” then yes, I have a testimony. I profess belief(not knowledge) of most of the core beliefs of the church despite contradictory evidence. I absolutely see places where the hand of man is made manifest, but also places where the hand of “God” seems to be manifest.

Quote:

.. For months I’ve been trying to regain a testimony but honestly, I don’t know what the Spirit feels like. Maybe I’m not “perceptive” enough, maybe I’ve read too much “anti-mormon” literature, or maybe this religion is false.

Again, see my use of testimony. Also, my definition of how the spirit feels is “for my heart and mind to be in agreement” (D&C 8:2 Yea, behold, I will tell you in your mind and in your heart, by the Holy Ghost…) So when I have a question I pray, and study things out. When what I study agrees with what I feel (or vice versa), I call that the spirit.

Quote:

…opening my scriptures is a daunting task

Then don’t open them. I haven’t read them personally for many moons other then at church or while preparing a lesson. I find that other books (Such as “The God Who Weeps”) are more uplifting right now for me in my journey then some “books” I’ve read many times.

Quote:

I internally roll my eyes when hearing super TBM testimonies (“I know this is the one and true church”, etc).

This is tricky. I felt this way until one day I didn’t. Now I see other’s bare “testimony” and I feel what I can only describe as empathy for them. I feel that it is great that they feel okay in the world and at peace. To me it matters little that their understanding of truth differs then mine. I try to understand them from their world view. They believe they know so I perceive them that way and feel only joy with them, despite knowing that they don’t “KNOW” in the way I define knowledge.

:thumbup:

Quote:

I am on the brink of leaving the church, which frightens me, for the community and belonging aspect.

Then don’t leave.

Hang in there. I was where you are. At one point (Relatively recently, seeing as I joined this site 6 months ago) I barely believed in God and believed nothing else about the church. I went through the motions and no one at church knew. I found this site and realized that there were other’s that didn’t claim knowledge but still believed. I learned about Fowler’s stages of faith. What I was going through was normalized for me. I saw I was in stage 4, going through the deconstruction/reconstruction stage. But I saw others whom I perceived to be in stage 5 and I thought, “I’d sure like to be there.” Of course, wanting and being are different. Nevertheless I’ve seen an incredible change in myself over the last few months. My world view is shaping around my desire to believe. I’ve come to understand that faith is a choice that one makes. There is absolutely no concrete proof that the church is false, nor is there any that it is “true.” All the historical ugliness is just our best understanding of what happended, all biased based on what we want to believe (or what the majority of the evidence suggests), even if that desire is subconscious. The real challenge is learning to embrace uncertainty to the point that it is part of you and your world view. Where I am today, I find joy participating at church. I feel edified in the oppoutuinity to uplift others and be of service. Nevertheless from a purely salvation point I could leave tomorrow and not live in fear of eternal damnation. So I truly feel liberated in that my actions and my beliefs are my choice. And I would never judge another for making a different choice as it is their choice.

Best of luck! :thumbup:

[Anonymous]

Actions matter more than professions of belief, if you ask me. When most people say testimony, they seem to mean proof or evidence that leads to their conviction or being convinced. But we are told not to seek for a sign for good reason. Proof and evidence are illusory. Yet, I think we can share spiritual experiences in a way that is authentic. What is dangerous is throwing everything into one big cart and saying it’s all true together or it’s all false together. I’d prefer someone saying “It’s true enough for me to act.” or even just, “I have a mix of experiences and hopes that has led me to this point, and I choose hope.”

[Anonymous]

I think at this point, I have re-formed what I believe in my mind. I don’t accept any of the standard definitions of things in the church–it is no longer of any literal meaning. Church history is no less or more messy than the history of religion from the start. On the other hand, i have defined what i believe in concrete terms.. Therefore, the words used in scripture and in church mean things deep and profound to me, they aren’t typically what the church teaches. Instead, my new reality constitutes my own, authentic testimony, my witness to what I have experienced to be true.

To me, going through faith crisis–including an absolute indictment that the literal facts around a given religion’s foundational and truth claims are likely false–is part of the evolution of my faith. In evolving, I think it important not to cast aside the reality of spiritual experience. My sense of wonder about the divine is important…and while in the past I associated spiritual experience with a confirming testimony of truth claims, I now see something more, something deeper and more meaningful: the divine essence of being human. God is no longer that which is “out there”, distinct, awe inspiring, and the divine other, but rather, a constant companion: the god within. Such a being was the same god who has always been by my side, comforting me, carrying me…I just never realized it. Now coming back into the faith, I see LDS faith in a different light.

So, yes, I get a lot out of scripture and church ritual. It works for me.

[Anonymous]

vickzorz, I sense some pain in your questions and I hope you hang in there.

Yes, I have a testimony. It has been greatly shaken, but it’s still there. I think I am very blessed with a certain gift. As the scripture says, “To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world.” When I was doubting everything, I was able to fall back on previous experiences. As a teenager, I was stuck in a destructive lifestyle and was deeply depressed. I was rescued by the Savior and really got close to Him.

Since you said you are trying to regain a testimony, can you consider what testimony you had before? Check out what you wrote before: “I know that I feel good when I do read it and try to apply its principles of humility, righteousness and Christlike love in my life.”

I find that my mind darkens when I focus on negative aspects of church history. When I can let that stuff go, I receive light and truth. I have been on a roller coaster ride and it’s not over.

For what it’s worth, I really believe reading “anti-mormon” literature can push the Spirit away. That’s how it is for me, at least.

I have been in a place where reading the scriptures was daunting. Sometimes I could do some studying of certain topics, though. Maybe try looking up passages about God’s love or something else that suits you.

The Gospel is alive and well. Jesus is the Savior. Faith, repentance, baptism, and the Holy Ghost are legit.

[Anonymous]

Cadence wrote:

Sorry I am in the same boat. There is no way I can believe like I once did. To much evidence to the contrary. Maybe you are trying to gain a testimony of something that does not exist. I believe things that are true tend to be self evident. I do not need to gain a testimony of gravity. I can not see it but it is obvious that it exists and effects my life. I do not have wake up each day praying for gravity to remain a part of my life. If I have to work so hard to believe something that is so elusive As a real testimony of the church I have determined it is not worth the effort.

This is about where I’m at too. I just said this to myself the other day. If I have to continually convince myself that this is true, can it possibly be true? I know the truth when I see it in this world and the things I know are true I never question at all. The people I know in the church say that thoughts of doubt are created by satan and things like that, but really it’s starting to sound a whole lot like my conscience telling me…..dude, you better think about all this.

[Anonymous]

vickzorz wrote:

Hey, I’m mostly a lurker/rare-commenter here. Just wondering if there is anyone who actually is able to keep a testimony even in the face of dark Church history, statements made by past and current leaders, bigotry, lack of scientific evidence for the Flood, the BoM, etc… For months I’ve been trying to regain a testimony but honestly, I don’t know what the Spirit feels like. Maybe I’m not “perceptive” enough, maybe I’ve read too much “anti-mormon” literature, or maybe this religion is false.It’s to the point where opening my scriptures is a daunting task and I internally roll my eyes when hearing super TBM testimonies (“I know this is the one and true church”, etc). I am on the brink of leaving the church, which frightens me, for the community and belonging aspect.

I’m just wondering if there is anyone out there who still gets answers to prayers or still feels that the gospel is true even if the church is seriously flawed. Are there any talks or scriptures that inspire you? How do you recognize the Spirit?

Yes. I’ll just +1 what Orson wrote and not take up too much time.

[Author]

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