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I hope this is the right section to post this thread. Some of the doubts/questions I have are not really doctrine based so I didn’t want to put it in that section. I thought I would ask one at a time, some questions about the doubts I have and hopefully you can help me? OK, one of the doubts I have is about Tithing. I am not overly keen on the idea of giving at least 10% of my income to the Church, not knowing how the money is being used. ALL members of the Church (including the Prophet) are only human at the end of the day and are just as prone to flaws as the average joe. Maybe it is my not trusting side coming through, but I don’t like the idea of other HUMANS being in control of my money. If the Church said “You must give 10% of your income, however you choose where it goes”, then I would be more (not 100%) OK with it. As my Mum pointed out to be once 10% of her income pays my brothers school fees and she struggles with that.
When I was an active member – I was just about getting clear on Tithing when I was at YSA Institute one night and the teachers commented about the Apostles and how they have to give ALL of their money to the Church and then get an income on which they can “survive”. They even read a letter from one of the Apostles (cant remember name) about how he gave up his million pound business and ALL his money to the Church. The moral of the story was of course that he was happy and his past working friends who were now millionaires said they would do anything to have his happiness. But it was still a shock to hear. I asked a couple of the more experienced (for lack of a better word) LDS members who said this wasn’t true and they don’t give ALL their money and worldly goods to the Church, so I am now a little confused. As I would have thought that this was a black and white scenario – they either do have to give up ALL their money or they dont?
If you could help me out on these couple of issues, that would be great. I would appreciate your thoughts? Thanks
I like the benefits of my tithing – especially compared to what we used to pay back in the day. (all kinds of contributions, including the building fund) Our current tithing pays for SO many things that it didn’t previously that I really don’t have a problem with it – especially when you think of the building that occurs in poor areas that can’t afford them on their own. I also don’t want transparency and full financial disclosure. Our expectations are too high in too many areas already, and I can imagine what would happen if members and non-members (and anti-Mormons) had the ability to critique every expenditure the Church made. No thanks. I’m fine with this being a matter of trust and faith, especially given what I’ve seen and heard over the years from people who have seen the inner working of much of this. (I have an uncle who works on the HVAC in new temples; one of my best friends installs windows in temples occasionally; my mother was a secretary in Pres. McKay’s office before she got married; etc. My mom’s experiences particularly are fascinating.)
As to the apostles living the law of consecration, they are not required to do so and, to my knowledge, don’t. Whoever told you that simply was wrong. The ones who can continue to live off their own financial resources don’t receive a separate living allowance, so, in practical terms, they are volunteers. Those who can’t live off their resources receive a living allowance. Obviously, the Church pays all costs associated with their travel responsibilities (which are significant), but they cut costs constantly. (for example, sleeping and eating at local Stake Presidents’ homes when attending Stake Conferences whenever possible) Almost everyone outside the Church (and many members) would be surprised at how frugally they live while they travel. It’s particularly stark when compared to business executives.
OK a thought Now I am working thorugh issues so I am NOT going to pretend I have recieved some great revelation
Maybe i am totally wrong and I could upset a few people here
If I do I apologise – that really is NOT my intention
Tithing is defined as 10% of ones “increase”
what exactly is an increase anyhow
To use round figures lets say I earn £1000 a month
Is that REALLY my increase
I pay taxes before I get my money – its taken automatically in the UK
So that would leave me with say 850 a month
Is THAT my increase
I pay rent and other bills (not including “luxery” things like tv internet etc
What exactly is my INCREASE
Or is that something that is supposed to be left open to our own revelation in our homes – particularly for those “priesthood holders”
I mean – in all honesty after bills – including paying off debts – and BEFORE buying food
I am left with a very very minor sum of money
If I am to pay 100 from my gross income (using the above figures) then something will have to be given up
like food – council tax – electric bill
I know that the scriptures say that God will provide and all that jazz – and I know that in the states there is the Bishops storehouse – here in the UK it works a little differently but food and bill money can be helped with. BUt to me I cant help but think of it as a gamble – you give us 10% and trust us you will be able to eat
And – one more point (sorry this is going on)
What of the mother who goes to church and her husband doesnt
He doesnt want tithing to be paid – what can she do?
THoughts?
Quote:Or is that something that is supposed to be left open to our own revelation in our homes.
Yes. I know people who pay on the gross; personally, fwiw, I pay on the net – which means I also pay on any tax return money I get. That’s up to you, and no bishop or stake president should EVER ask about it in a temple recommend interview or preach one interpretation over another. That’s been stated explicitly multiple times by the Brethren.
Quote:What of the mother who goes to church and her husband doesn’t; He doesn’t want tithing to be paid – what can she do?
Her only obligation is to pay on what she earns. If their only income is his, and if he refuses to tithe it, she is still a full-tithe payer even if she pays nothing – since 10% of 0 is 0.
“Increase” can be defined a lot of different ways. Yes, the more orthodox definition common in our Church is 10% of gross revenue. I’m an accountant, so I am very keen on the wording and definitions people use when talking about tithing in the Church. “Increase” to me, from a financial perspective, is a clearly defined word that means you have more *wealth* at the end of the year than at the beginning. It means your equity on your balance sheet is greater. It is only indirectly correlated with revenue (wages, etc.) and expenses. Even though I earned a certain amount of money this year at my job, I was in fact less wealthy on Dec 31st, 2008 than I was on Jan 1st, 2008. So did I have an increase? I spend all my resources caring for and raising a large family that we felt “inspired” to create (at a time too when we were more traditional members of the Church).
What I am getting at is this. We should interpret tithing how we think is right. What are we comfortable with? Could we give more (and I mean to other good charities too to help others)? We might. That is a noble goal — to use our resources to help others in need. Decide what you want to do and take joy in your giving. Can’t give cash? Give time then. Give of yourself to others. Pretty much anyone can do that.
To be honest, I do not currently pay any tithing to the Church. I can’t, in my heart and soul, get past the stress of struggling to support my family and feel like I would be making a responsible decision. I do give 10% or more of my time to God and the LDS Church (combined). I try to take joy in that. It is good. It may not be the ideal from the viewpoint of other people, but that is what I can give right now in the right spirit. I pay fast offerings sometimes too. That in theory doesn’t detract from one’s financial budget.
magicmusician wrote:BUt to me I cant help but think of it as a gamble – you give us 10% and trust us you will be able to eat
If it helps anyone to know, I can’t currently bring myself to make that gamble either. I don’t. I used to at times try to follow that suggestion from people, where they tell a story of paying donations and then their finances miraculously work out, some check arrives in the mail and all is well. I just can’t do it anymore. I can’t look at my electric bill, see the turn off notice, pay tithing anyway, and then hope that money shows up before my wife and children go without heat and electricity. Sure, the Church *might* help me. They might not. Either way, why should they? I had the money in my hand to take care of myself, and I am thankful and acknowledge God’s presence in my life.
I think my address must be wrong on the membership roster in heaven, because those miracle checks from God don’t show up.
This whole topic brings me back to the recommendation to drop the all-or-nothing thinking. I don’t have to throw the entire Church out of my life just because I don’t practice tithing the same way other people in the Church do.i pay what i can when i can, but the majority of time i donot because i don’t work & i use my childsupport checks to tithe, but with 3 boys to raise that money God gives me is to support my children, but during fasting days i would give some to help others. Well, of course, if you are a self-reported (that’s the only kind there is) full tithe payer, you have access to the Church Welfare system. In these rocky economic times, that’s a comfort, IMO. It’s got to be the best system out there for taking care of those who can’t make ends meet, and I have been surprised at times by some of what the church is willing to cover to help families meet obligations. As a business executive, I guess I’m just a little more stingy than I have seen most bishops behave. I agree that the church welfare system is the best way to help families less fortunate I have heard of great things happening.
And its not just “handouts” service of some kind generally has to be given in return. And I honestly wish that governemnt in the UK would take a message from this with some people
Lets say there are people on income support or even job seekers
Let them have the benefits but have to work for it, or at least part of it
Be it painting over graffiti or whatever.
I just wonder sometimes about the validity of some of it. My question is this
where in the new testament does it mention tithing
I know its in the OT but is it actually in the NT?
Can anyone help with a quote?
Well, in the NT they were living the law of consecration and had “all things in common.” So, you pretty much gave 100%, not 10%. I have received church welfare assistance more than once due to unemployment. Having paid tithing and fast offerings over the years, it makes a difficult thing (receiving assistance) bearable. It really is an amazing aspect of the Church, especially because it can be extended to those who aren’t members, as well. I have also at two points in our life. I think the Church runs an excellent program. Thanks for replying to my post. There were some interesting points made. I do accept that the Church has a wonderful system and that it does indeed help those that are in need or trouble financially. I have a friend who is in the church and his family got into some problems a few years back and they were given money so that they could feed themselves. On one hand I was thinking that is really good of the church and on the other hand I was thinking well if they hadn’t of paid the tithing they would have been able to pay for their own food in the first place. I cant seem to get past my overly critical mind and the way I analyse absolutely everything. It started back in school when I was told by a teacher in English that I had to be more analytical – I seem to have taken it to the extreme. Another doubt I have with the Church is the Word of Wisdom – specifically Tea and Coffee. I can get my head around alcohol – I have never drank much anyway, so it never bothered me, but I don’t see what Tea has got in it which is so harmful. I would have said something like chocolate would be more harmful than tea. Part of me wonders if it is because the religion is considered “American” and at the time in the 1800s, there was that problem with Tea etc – cant remember the details exactly, so I wonder if it was more of a political more than a divine issue.
Another doubt I have is the endowment ceremony. I accept that it is sacred and this is why members do not discuss the specifics and that most of the ceremony is symbolic – however with the help of the internet and have read about the ceremony through a reliable source (i.e. wasn’t a critical or completely accepting article) and the whole ceremony just seemed a little weird (I don’t mean to be offensive, I am just trying to iron out my doubts and need to be honest with how things make me feel to do that).
If you could offer help with these few doubts I would be very grateful. Thanks
If you would like more lengthy discussions of these points, it might be a great idea to start a new topic for each one. I’ll give a short answer based on my own opinions. NotSure2008 wrote:Another doubt I have with the Church is the Word of Wisdom – specifically Tea and Coffee. I can get my head around alcohol – I have never drank much anyway, so it never bothered me, but I don’t see what Tea has got in it which is so harmful. I would have said something like chocolate would be more harmful than tea. Part of me wonders if it is because the religion is considered “American” and at the time in the 1800s, there was that problem with Tea etc – cant remember the details exactly, so I wonder if it was more of a political more than a divine issue.
For me personally, I have a lot of problems with the history and development of the Word of Wisdom. I do not have a lot of faith in the details of the current interpretation from a thinking standpoint. The medical health aspects are either wrong or sadly outdated. I can think of other newer food substances that I believe are far more harmful than a cup of tea.
I believe in the general concet of health and thinking of our bodies as a temple for our spirit (a gift from God). I think good health can compliment spirituality. I believe in all that. The details … that is where I have a disagreement.
Another very valid way to look at it is just a religious dietary practice. We do it simply as a sign of devotion. This is common in many other religions: Kosher, Halal, and the vegetarian diets of eastern religions.
NotSure2008 wrote:Another doubt I have is the endowment ceremony. I accept that it is sacred and this is why members do not discuss the specifics and that most of the ceremony is symbolic – however with the help of the internet and have read about the ceremony through a reliable source (i.e. wasn’t a critical or completely accepting article) and the whole ceremony just seemed a little weird (I don’t mean to be offensive, I am just trying to iron out my doubts and need to be honest with how things make me feel to do that).
There are several other threads going on right now about this topic. Quick response: Yes. It is “wierd” I guess. The Endowment is a 19th century mystery play. The majority of members take it as literal (right or wrong). A minority of members, the ones that think about it a lot and study the history, decide it is mostly symbolic (if they stay in the Church and still value it). That is my observation.
Fwiw, I view the Word of Wisdom in three ways: 1) Divinely inspired warnings about addictions that would be exploited greatly in the future – which I think is spot-on.
2) General dietary counsel of the day, which can change over time – just like throughout scripture.
3) A cultural demarcation to “separate from the world”.
I really believe the first one was inspired; the second is quite flexible; the third is no big deal for me, especially since I was born in the Church and see no real benefit from the alternative.
As to the endowment, it’s probably better to consolidate to one thread. I’ll do that in a few minutes, if valoel hasn’t already done so.
Old Timer wrote:
my mother was a secretary in Pres. McKay’s office before she got married; etc. My mom’s experiences particularly are fascinating).
Have you shared any of her experiences here in Stay LDS?
I’d love to read about some of them.
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