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I heard a speaker in an area conference state that we should not be seeking a single spiritual response to prayer indicating the truthfulness of the mormon story. He said that it was actually a culmination of events the that after some period of time we would feel it was true. Any ideas here? I quit paying tithing a month ago to get out if debt. I had never missed a payment in my life before. I had some cool things happen where my parents helped with a loan and it came out to be my tithing amount for the period I struggled most. I wrote it off as coincidence since my parents might have done it anyway. I have been doubting for years about the church. At first I really wanted it to be true. Now I don’t because I don’t want to feel obligated….. But if I did get answer to prayer I would step things up a bit. So do these answers really happen for people? I feel the same praying to Buddha or something.
Well, I did ask a specific question about whether I should join and whether it was true, and felt this overpowering spirituality almost immediately afterwards. However, I’ve found it really hard to sustain willingly….I think these things happen to people, I believe it. In fact, that experience is probably the only reason I still attend. And yes, you do feel obligated. And in my world, I also feel like it gives the priesthood leaders license to make me do anything they feel “inspired” to do — even when it’s not good for me. That’s why I believe in boundaries, even if a person has a spiritual witness.
SilentDawning wrote:Well, I did ask a specific question about whether I should join and whether it was true, and felt this overpowering spirituality almost immediately afterwards. However, I’ve found it really hard to sustain willingly….I think these things happen to people, I believe it. In fact, that experience is probably the only reason I still attend.
And yes, you do feel obligated. And in my world, I also feel like it gives the priesthood leaders license to make me do anything they feel “inspired” to do — even when it’s not good for me. That’s why I believe in boundaries, even if a person has a spiritual witness.
Great answer SD,
I too have had spiritual experiences that I interpret to be from God and to confirm his love for me. To me, this is “pure testimony” or “revelation” and is as close as I can come to meaningful and spiritual truth. I plan to base my life upon it.
In a conversation that I had with an elderly gentleman after priesthood meeting, he was saying that people often confuse emotion and feeling for the Holy Ghost. Perhaps they do, but (even taking for granted that I can distinguish between feeling and the Holy Ghost within myself) how could I possibly hope to explain the distintion to another. Especially because I understand that the Holy Spirit can speak to me in different ways at different times. How much more inexplicable would the situation be if the Spirit didn’t use the same methods with the hearer as with me.
Your quest for truth is unique to you. It is between you and your Heavenly Father. The answers/confirmations/impressions you may feel or may have felt are up to you to interpret to the best of your ability. I believe that the purpose of this journey you are on is to plumb the depths of your soul. I believe that God is with you in this journey. Sometimes He plays the wise tutor and sometimes the silent partner. I am confident that even when He is silent, He is still there. I also feel that whatever your discovery may reveal, God will not be angry or disappointed as long as you are true to yourself.
At least, that is how it has been for me…
Any statement that we shouldn’t seek “a single spiritual response to prayer” actually means, I think, that we shouldn’t just sit around and pray – without doing anything – waiting for an answer that will say Mormonism is “true”. I think it means we need to try it while we pray for enlightenment. At least, that’s the only meaning that makes sense to me – and it does make sense with that particular wording. As to your question, yes, it does happen to people – lots of people – in lots of faith traditions. I certainly have had some really cool experiences – but rarely have they been direct answers to prayers while I have been praying. It doesn’t happen to others, so I like anything that admits it doesn’t happen for everyone. Knowledge, faith, desire – and all that stuff.
Quote:I heard a speaker in an area conference state that we should not be seeking a single spiritual response to prayer indicating the truthfulness of the mormon story. He said that it was actually a culmination of events the that after some period of time we would feel it was true. Any ideas here?
I do think it is different for everyone, but this advice is odd IMO. We do in fact as missionaries tell people to pray to know whether to join. And this is what JS did. It is what I did also, and I did have a very clear affirmative answer that to me was binding. But it doesn’t mean it’s the same for everyone. I think it goes to the idea of “gifts of the spirit.” I think that people all experience things differently.
Quote:I quit paying tithing a month ago to get out if debt. I had never missed a payment in my life before. I had some cool things happen where my parents helped with a loan and it came out to be my tithing amount for the period I struggled most. I wrote it off as coincidence since my parents might have done it anyway.
I’ve seen and heard so many of these same stories, both in and out of the church. It’s kind of the same principle as the book The Secret and the Law of Attraction too.
Quote:I have been doubting for years about the church. At first I really wanted it to be true. Now I don’t because I don’t want to feel obligated…..
But if I did get answer to prayer I would step things up a bit. So do these answers really happen for people? I feel the same praying to Buddha or something.
I often wonder if prayer is about the being to whom we pray or the potential we unlock within ourselves – the divine within becoming empowered. That’s a little bit out there maybe, but it’s how I view prayer; it’s a more empowering view of ourselves, but consistent to me with the idea of men becoming gods (a Mormon notion) rather than the traditional Christian idea that we all suck and only God is worth anything.
My take on the “don’t expect a single spiritual response to prayer” is to reduce expectations. As HG pointed out above the historical examples and the missionary teaching is just that, pray and receive a witness. As a rule it doesn’t seem to happen that way so there’s a need to have people not feel they’ve failed or are unworthy. But when the expectation is that you won’t receive “the answer” it changes the whole dynamic of what prayer is taught to be, personal revelation from Father in Heaven by the Holy Ghost. The talk you heard may have been based on Elder Uchtdorf’s conference talk “Waiting on the Road to Damascus”. Quote:there are some who feel that unless they have an experience similar to Saul’s or Joseph Smith’s, they cannot believe. They stand at the waters of baptism but do not enter. They wait at the threshold of testimony but cannot bring themselves to acknowledge the truth. Instead of taking small steps of faith on the path of discipleship, they want some dramatic event to compel them to believe.
They spend their days waiting on the road to Damascus.
Elder Uchtdorf, April Conference 2011
It makes sense to me that conversion doesn’t happen all at once with one huge, irrefutable proof. It is a faith walk, line upon line, precept upon precept from the still small voice and Alma’s proof through growth and experience.
Even the apostles and prophets have admitted this has been the path for many of them as they diligently work over years and years of service.
To me, this is why it is not simple, and it is not 100% clear in seeking the confirmation. It requires the desire and willingness of the person seeking truth to want to accept answers that are given, and the challenge to ward off the logical or cynical mind that can often dismiss the signals with thought instead of action.
As GBSmith says, it may mean reducing expectations to a more realistic level. But I think the realization of gaining truth over time through experience and action, confirmed by the Spirit, is likely more moving to the soul than a big vision.
My advice is to back off of expectations that it is “true” or “false”, as that binary thinking is less productive. Look at it as a continuum of truth, for which you can base your life journey (as SD wrote). If praying to Buddha is also something that produces good fruit in your life, learn from that until something better replaces it. Always add to good things and trade up.
Hi, Yes, it is so hard when you can’t find the answer you are seeking. especially when its so specific. If you could get a yes or no it would be so much easier!
I have found in my experience that I can no longer seek confirmation of truth. I have to strictly go on what makes me feel calm and peaceful. I have spent many hrs and days agonizing on “truthfulness” and “knowing if a specific sect is true”. I would read different books and opinions only to find myself angrier and more stressed out. I have had spiritual experiences within the church but not necessarily because the church is true or not true. I think when we are at peace we are more suseptible to spirital experiences and notice the miracles and promptings around us. I love so much about the church and resist much of it. I went through much turmoil internally and ended up feeling it was right for me and my family to stay within the church. I have decided that I would no longer require myself to claim that the church was true or false. I will just enjoy my particiapation and focus on the basics. Such as family unity, praying and loving others. I will no longer judge my testimony against my husbands or the girls I am sitting next to in relief society.
You are an amazing person and be sure to give yourself credit for all the things you do.
What happens when you never receive any answers to anything and the “peace” comes mainly when you ignore the LDS church? Is that an answer from God? Brown, When I was on my mission, my companion and I were given a ride to our destination by a man who quite eagerly talked to us about his experience with the Mormons. He made a point to say that he had prayed about the Book of Mormon (Moroni 10 promise) and that it had left him cold. His attitude was “what about that, huh?” Well, I didn’t have a good answer to his question then and I don’t have a good answer to your question now (wish I did!) but it did get me to thinking about D&C Section 9.
Quote:8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.
9 But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a astupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong; therefore, you cannot write that which is sacred save it be given you from me.
I’m no scriptorian but I do wonder if this verse isn’t one of the most misinterpreted in the Church. These verses were given to Oliver Cowdery when he was eager to translate. Here are the following verses:
Quote:10 Now, if you had known this you could have translated; nevertheless, it is not expedient that you should translate now.
11 Behold, it was expedient when you commenced; but you feared, and the time is past, and it is not expedient now;
This seems to be specific instructions to one man but is often treated as a general recommendation in the Church. Members have come to expect that this is how personal revelation occurs but I have my doubts. The problem is when you approach a situation with the expectation that this is what you’ll experience (a burning or a stupor) and you don’t get that, it’s a bit of a letdown. Maybe this is what Cowdery felt but it may not be how personal revelation manifests itself in all of us. I believe I’ve had personal revelation but it did not occur as described above.
Brown wrote:What happens when you never receive any answers to anything and the “peace” comes mainly when you ignore the LDS church? Is that an answer from God?
If we are to be at all consistent, the answer has to be ‘yes’. I have had, and continue to have experiences like that. Of course that leads to all kinds of wonderful apparent contradictions.
Quote:I’m no scriptorian but I do wonder if this verse isn’t one of the most misinterpreted in the Church.
We love to take things out of context. My favorite is the one where the character in the BoM who might have been commenting on the weather mentions that a seer must be greater than a prophet. As a result, we have to puzzle over this one in church a few times every year, still trying to figure out what the difference is.
Quote:Brown wrote:
What happens when you never receive any answers to anything and the “peace” comes mainly when you ignore the LDS church? Is that an answer from God?
An answer to which part? That is what I struggle to know at times…the answers are a feeling about a complex multi faceted situation in life, and discerning it is a gift.
I can only go by my heart on what I think the Lord is telling me. I can’t tell what that means to others, but typically, “peace” points to something good…what that something is can be harder to tell. Perhaps a person can repeat the process and see if the answer becomes clear?
Not getting answers is very frustrating for me.
I’ve never received any answers to any prayers, period. Even when I was reading daily and praying daily. I just keep praying and then eventually just do what I guess is probably right. It’s the same as I do when I am not praying about things, only without the tedious prayer part. Unless I am supposed to attribute making my own decisions to God’s influence, I don’t think I am getting anything back. Sometimes I get a rush or a “burning in my bosom” when participating in certain church activities. But I struggle with what they mean. I can get similar feelings during non-religious experience, too. So is that normal human emotion, or the “spirit”?
To some is given to know . . . To some is given to believe on those who know . . .
I would add:
Quote:To some is given not to know or believe, but to do the best they can, regardless.I’ve said before that I feel sympathy for Laman and Lemuel when they said, “He maketh no such thing known unto us.” Maybe they just were being totally honest and snapped when Lehi and Nephi couldn’t understand that. Maybe they couldn’t handle the constant, unrealistic expectations and got pushed over the edge. Otoh, maybe they really were nothing more than wicked jerks – but I tend to think it was WAY more complicated than that.
So, I’m left with the belief that people perceive and feel and intuit and know differently – which is why “all men everywhere” (including inside the LDS Church) must be allowed to “worship almighty God according to the dictates of (their) own conscience”.
Brown wrote:So is that normal human emotion, or the “spirit”?
There just is no cut and dry answer. I think it has something to do with being human emotion, and then sometimes the Spirit enhances the human emotion…making them feel identical except for timing and purpose, which we need to responsibly discern (which is no small task or sure method).
You may get plenty of people provide examples and things that happened to them which are clearly answers to them when it has worked out well, but there is just no way to know if it would have worked out just the same with or without prayer. Since that is what religion is all about (mysticism, mysteries of God, faith by unsure evidence of those things that aren’t seen), personal revelation becomes a choice to believe answers or dismiss them.
I find it one of the most difficult things about being a Mormon, because there is so much emphasis in testing that out and relying on answers in the teachings of the gospel, and getting confirmation about everything in life, so it is not easily set aside when it is talked about almost every Sunday. It is, after all, at the very root of how Joseph started the church, right?
Having said that…I hesitate, and apologize in advance for being so bold, but wonder if it would help to share my personal experience:
– I grew up in the church, and gained a testimony of prayer from an early age of 12 (those experiences stay with me to this day)
– In 2008, I fell into a faith crisis when I couldn’t recognize ANY answers to prayers at a critical point in my life, I mean a very critical life or death situation. My disappointment with prayer was that if I couldn’t get direction at at time I needed it most, what was the point of getting it for everyday mundane things like lost car keys?
– For 2 1/2 years I waited for answers and received nothing, leading me to spend month after month studying what this means and questioning your exact question…”human emotion or spirit?” Was it always all in my head? Was I fool to believe in prayer all my life? It was back in April 2009 when Ray referred me to StayLDS.com, and I studied ferociously.
– The past 4 months, answers began coming, despite my prayers (and church attendance) are much less frequent…but I never gave up hope I could receive answers, I just stopped expecting them any more, and it seems when I wasn’t desperate for answers, I started seeing things that made me think they were answers and I should not dismiss them. This left me to wonder seriously if they were answers or not. To be honest, I didn’t worry much about classifying them. I guess I’ve been more interested in trying to make some important decisions, and didn’t really care if they were from my head or the Spirit, either way, there were some enlightened thoughts that I was grateful to have, whatever the source.
– I also recognized in the past few months other people were saying things and coming into my life to help at times I was in need. The thoughts kept coming to me that sometimes the Lord answers through other people, not directly to me. Perhaps I am just choosing to want to believe that, but the thought keeps coming to me, and I don’t wish to discount it. I am not 100% sure they are answers or coincidence, I just am grateful those people have touched me. I guess I just go with it. Why not?
– I felt the Spirit strong in a Buddhist temple I visited. I felt the Spirit in Sacrament Meeting the next week (first time in years I felt anything in church), and recognized it as the same feeling as when I was in the Buddhist temple. I believe it is telling me there is truth, and it can come from many sources…so it is less about the Church is true and the channel to God, and more about good is good, wherever I find it, and I can find it in the church.
– My biggest leap of faith lately, as I am struggling with a major life issue still, was to go to the temple last week. I honestly was not expecting any answers, just wanted to go with my brother and feel some peace. In the Celestial Room, I said my prayer, and a thought came to me. It was what I needed to know at that time. And I felt peace. I’m glad I went to the temple (first time I’ve been in the temple in 3 years…seriously, I was unsure if I’d ever go to the temple again in my life…but I went, I felt relaxed, and it was a good experience, seeing the whole ceremony through my new eyes of faith).
On my way into work this morning, I thought of the experience, and wondered if I was foolish to believe there was really a God giving me thoughts, or if that is childish. I remembered what I learned from John Dehlin podcasts, and so many people on this site and elsewhere that raise good points, that have taught me to think rationally about life and my expectations. But I thought to myself, I may never know if it was God or my own brain, but the answer I felt I received was so liberating and enlightening to me and my situation…that in my heart, I honestly feel it came from outside of me, even if I’ll never be able to prove that. I believe it came from God (even if I can’t conceive how that can happen). I told myself, I will let myself believe that, and until I feel something different I will choose to accept it as an answer from God. All I can say is that as soon as I thought the words “I will choose to accept it” – I got a feeling sweep over me, as if the Spirit was telling me, “Good choice”. I recognized the same feeling from the many times I had answers to prayers in the past. It makes no sense to me why I didn’t get any of those experiences for a good 2 1/2 years when I was really needing that. But I don’t feel in my heart I can just dismiss it. I believe it was an answer, and I don’t know why it happens sometimes, and not others, to some people frequently and to others rarely if at all, or why it is happening to me now when I’ve become so disconnected from my ward and the church.
I can only share my belief, that I think there are confirmations of truth through prayer, and honestly, I think it is completely independent of the Church…it is personal. But I don’t know why it isn’t more formulaic and repeatable, and transferable to others. Just as Ray made that good point about Laman and Lemuel possibly not getting answers, my experience has helped me be much more sympathetic to others that claim this, because when people were telling me maybe I was doing something wrong and not getting answers, or maybe I was just not seeing the answers that were there…in my heart there was nothing anyone else could say…I just felt alone. I just didn’t feel any answers. And now, even though I’m much more critical and cynical, in my heart I just feel I have had an answer, and I don’t want to deny that.
I don’t know if that is of help, Brown, or if that is just another person claiming things that make you roll your eyes. But although I allowed myself to fully be open to never receiving answers again in my life…I don’t feel good about dismissing some of my recent experiences, even if I am still a bit chapped why I couldn’t get any of those experiences at the most difficult time of my life.
I am more capable now of understanding when you say you have never received answers to any prayer, or you get feelings with church and non-church activities alike. I totally believe you. And I don’t know what that means exactly. Perhaps sometimes answers come when we aren’t looking for them so hard. Perhaps it is all a choice to classify them as answers, or not. Maybe its not even important, and the real important thing is if you are developing Christ-like attributes and you are on a good path to peace and growth…with or without answers to prayers.
At least you can know you aren’t alone. People have struggled with this issue throughout history, that’s for sure. Thanks for taking time to read my response. Since it was on my mind today, I wanted to share that.
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