Selfishness, Dictatorship, Good Judgment?

[Anonymous]

A while ago, my daughter and my wife started making annual trips to Utah for various conferences and such. They love it there — good people, they said, people are nicer, the mountains. Close to everything Mormon and they love the prevalence of Mormon culture. As a result, and without my buy-in, my wife started looking for jobs for me in Utah and found a few that fit me like a glove. Our Ward is also awful, as many of you know, and although its working (somewhat) in attending a Ward in a different stake, they don’t feel fully involved. They are also tired of the state in which we live and see moving as a solution, as well as the routine of our lives here.

I, on the other hand, think it would be difficult to move. Golden Handcuffs with my employer means I owe them $30,000 if I leave voluntarily. My wife encouraged me to build up rental properties in this area in the last 2-4 years, all of which are working. It would be a huge hassle to manage them from afar, and I would rather not sell them given the economics of the situation and the horrendous amount of work it was get into them into the first place. Based on 3 offers I got a while ago locally, I would likely have to take 12% paycut, and the benefits we currently have, with a “disabled” son are very good. Not likely the benefits would be as good elsewhere, although possible. We both have jobs, my wife, and I, that work for us and give us the flexibility we need to care for my son when he needs it, during the day at school. And we both like our jobs — no small feat.

Anyway, after intense pressure from the entire family (including my younger son, although less pressure from him), I just could not bring myself to embrace the upheaval and look for a job in Utah. I told them they would have to accept that we will stay put until I get terminated involuntarily or the golden handcuffs come off (in about 4 years). The reasons above in the second paragraph are too compelling for me to agree to the upheaval..

It came out yesterday that they think I am being a “dictator” in not going with the majority. That I’m being selfish. On the other hand, I feel this is wise judgment given the exit barriers and the size of the handcuffs.

Part of me also feels some resentment that the church seems to have so much pull over the lives of my family. The church influence is a huge factor in this. I don’t like the influence. For example, I had to buy a third car the other day because the way Seminary is set up, it’s impractical for my daughter to get to school without one. When we were first married, and could not have children, we decided to adopt, and to obey the old mandate from Ezra Taft Benson that “a woman’s place is in the home” we bought a house in a remote area so we could afford the payment on the house on one income + tithing and the adopted baby we were expecting. But the commute ended up being 90 minutes each way, on average, which I did for two years, and it nearly killed me (sometimes 3 hours on the way home if there were accidents or bad whether, I kid you not).

Anyway, back to the move to Utah. I personally think I’m simply being practical here. Yet the family frames it as dictatorial and selfish. Would you label this selfishness? The selfishness argument has been levelled against myself and others over the years, and as LDS people WANTING to be good people, avoiding that label can be a powerful motivator. But in this case, I’m not so sure.

[Anonymous]

Just giving my gut reaction.

Priorities

1) Employment – You never know what another job will be like until you get there. A stable job in the hand is worth two in the bush.

2) Benefits – With health concerns you do not want to get caught uninsured.

3) Extended Family – This kind of support can be great.

4) Community – Even in a good community it can take time to develop the associations needed to leverage this to your advantage.

From your description, it sounds like you have significant financial “roots” in your present area. I might be more willing to relocate if we were going to be close to family.

Sounds like the major move motivator is to be surrounded with the Mormon community. This could be a double-edged sword.

I do not like the way your family is lobbying you for a move. I would prefer this to be a decision between husband and wife (taking into consideration the needs of each family member) and then Mom & Dad jointly explain the decision to the kids. That is not “Dictatorship” – that is parenting. My prefered solution would be to talk to DW about your concerns and let her know that it hurts your feelings when she goes around you with the kids and then makes you out to be the bad guy.

[Anonymous]

Frankly I’m surprised that the conversation continues past “$30K golden handcuffs.” I’d like to move to Utah. $30K. 😯 You know what, I don’t want to move that much. But that’s me.

I see the “dictator” thing as unfounded, at least from the side of the story that you’ve provided. The dictator label comes across as an attempt to manipulate you into making the decision that they want you to make. It could also just be an emotional response – the family got really excited about doing something, now they think they can’t, now they vent a little.

Besides, it sounds like you let them know that you’d be willing to entertain the idea once defined and temporary conditions change. It shows flexibility on your end.

Roy wrote:

Sounds like the major move motivator is to be surrounded with the Mormon community. This could be a double-edged sword.

Agreed. Acknowledging the possibility that the experiment may not work out should be a part of weighing out the pros and cons. Would the sacrifices be worth it if your family ended up in Utah and later discovered that it wasn’t for them?

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the responses. I guess I needed some “support” for my decision to dig in my heels. I want to be a “good person” — whatever that means, so, labels such as dictator, or selfish can have an influence on decision-making. Both Roy and Nibbler present what I feel are very rational arguments. The fact that they line up with my own doesn’t hurt

Thanks everyone.

[Anonymous]

So… if your family demanding a $30K pony plus expenses… would you buy it? Only you can decide what answer is right for you. However…

I wanted to move to Utah for all the same reasons your family did BTW. When I told my friends what I was doing they thought I was crazy. They were TBMS. One even said “are you nuts? Those Utah Mormons will eat you alive!” I did… and they were right. Major disillusionment. If you don’t deal well with your home ward and have church bully issues anyway… it won’t be long before the shark pit here takes its toll. I cannot tell you how many people I have met that say they came to the promise land just to lose their testimonies. Then what??? You just fork it out to move back? The streets are not paved with gold. It is far from utopia. There are lots of good people here. There are also lots and lots of Pharisees and fakes. There is an entirely different subculture that you really would have to experience to understand. I loved it for years… until I saw too much and the bullies had their way with my kids. I was OK with them thinking whatever they thought of me… but they judged and alienated my kids for no good reason and pretended to do it in the name of God. It takes a special kind of Mormon to be happy here. I don’t recommend it for people who don’t do the box very well. I don’t play that and my particular neighbors hate that. Don’t get me wrong. I am NOT saying ALL Utah Mormons are like that. There are very many good people, but you can’t tell that until you are on the inside. I do feel there are WAY too many baddies and it’s hard to feel emotionally safe in that type of environment to grow spiritually. I know it would be better if I played the game better but it’s not a sport I care for. I guess one question you and your family need to ask yourselves is, “How good are you at the game? Do you want to play?” Are you willing to place bets of $30k plus job security, health insurance, pay cut, and rental income loss?

Your reasons are real. Your family wants you to move just because they want? Sorry sounds a bit spoiled to me. I would rather have a bit of financial security any day. You are not wrong for thinking supporting your family is MONUMENTAL. You are provider and you take much of you identity from that. If more men were like that… well there would be much less suffering of the innocents from poverty/homelessness/hunger. Maybe they don’t understand how much blood you have to let to provide for them, especially in the way they are obviously accustomed. Sometimes people get it… but they don’t get it. I don’t think its worth your financial risk. Grass is always greener? Well do you have enough green to not miss it if it doesn’t work out like they thought? I don’t know many people like that even if you do pretty well. JMO.

[Anonymous]

SD,

Based on the details you presented, staying where you are makes the most sense to me. I understand your wife and daughter may be “happier” in a different place, but the underlying costs seems pretty high.

Also agree with Nibbler that it sounds a bit manipulative to call you a dictator. As you are the provider for your family, where you work and what you do there and being employed should be a pretty high priority. Hope you and your family can work it out.

-SBRed

[Anonymous]

SunbeltRed wrote:

SD,

Based on the details you presented, staying where you are makes the most sense to me. I understand your wife and daughter may be “happier” in a different place, but the underlying costs seems pretty high.

Also agree with Nibbler that it sounds a bit manipulative to call you a dictator. As you are the provider for your family, where you work and what you do there and being employed should be a pretty high priority. Hope you and your family can work it out.

-SBRed

Yep — I feel a bit under appreciated when they make comments like that. I don’t want to sound like the male domineering person, but I do earn 85% of our household income, and there are times I would like to think my family respects and appreciates the lifestyle it provides, and what it would take for me to uproot everything and recreate this elsewhere. They help with the tedious but simple things (like packing and moving), but all of the other decisions (negotiating prices on houses, contractors, the new job, relationship with the new employer, assessing what our new life might be like in advance economically) — that all falls on me. Therefore, its overwhelming to think of everything that would have to come together to get into the situation we are now, again.

I feel as though the family is taking the contribution I’ve made to our family for granted. For example, it was on the strength of the hours I put in, and the education that I’ve pursued, that I was able to get us dual citizenship, broadening everyone’s employment horizons, and making it possible for them to even considering moving to a different state in America without a sponsor or risk we’d be sent back to our home country if employment changes. And it was expensive, and stressful in the beginning for reasons I won’t go into.

And of course, I can’t help but feel the influence of the church is a big influence in their decisions. They really dislike the church in the area we live, want to be fully integrated into a ward, and seem to think the answer is in Utah…

[Anonymous]

I have nothing for you on this one. It’s none of my business, and I’m not part of your family with its unique dynamics.

[Anonymous]

RagDollSallyUT wrote:

SThere are very many good people, but you can’t tell that until you are on the inside. I do feel there are WAY too many baddies and it’s hard to feel emotionally safe in that type of environment to grow spiritually. I know it would be better if I played the game better but it’s not a sport I care for. I guess one question you and your family need to ask yourselves is, “How good are you at the game? Do you want to play?” Are you willing to place bets of $30k plus job security, health insurance, pay cut, and rental income loss?

You nailed it right there.

If the economic side of things worked out with a move like that, I think I could manage playing the game. My wife commented the other day that makes me chuckle whenever I think about it. She said “if we moved to Utah, you might feel more comfortable than you do here, because there will be a lot of jack Mormons you could hang out with!”.

After I got over feeling offended over that label applied to me, it made me laugh a bit (and still does). I guess I don’t see myself as a “jack Mormon” — I see myself as someone who’s sufferred a lot in the church, and is making a go of “becoming a good person” and supporting my family in Mormonism in unorthodox ways.

Ragdoll or anyone — what kind of a person thrives in Utah? The good news is that my daughter is determined to live there in the next two years, and she’s travelling there over Thanksgiving break to visit a friend she flew down here for a few weeks. They are TBM family with a mountain of children, one income, kids on missions etcetera. this will give her a brief taste of life on the inside. And when she moves there, she may see a different side than the veneer that is attracting her now. Or, maybe she’ll thrive. One thing I’ve managed to breed out of her is the judgmentalism (as far as I can tell) and she bristles at the statement “The church is perfect but the people aren’t”. She also believes in having a career and not necessarily making her life’s work producing children and full-time mothering. These things are in her DNA as far as I can tell. These may create a sense of reality or even dissonance that might temper the enthusiasm.

So, what kind of a “special person” thrives in utah?

[Anonymous]

You have to live where you have the job. If your wife can get a job in Utah that offsets the loss of income, that’s fair. You don’t want to collectively take a huge step back financially. You have your whole lives to pay for, and you only have the productive years to do that. Utah has good and bad points, but I wouldn’t go there without having a job already, enough to offset your losses. Starting over also means you are the most vulnerable one at the new company. You are the first to go if they lay people off. This is the kind of short-sighted decision making that can mark the downfall of your family’s economic security. I don’t call that being a dictator. Your wife needs to be in agreement with you and fully responsible for the family’s financial well-being as you are. Even if she’s not working, you are both partners in making sure your needs are met financially, whether she is working or simply taking joint responsibility for it and keeping costs in line with earnings.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

I do not like the way your family is lobbying you for a move. I would prefer this to be a decision between husband and wife (taking into consideration the needs of each family member) and then Mom & Dad jointly explain the decision to the kids. That is not “Dictatorship” – that is parenting.

:clap:

I agree. It seems that this should be a decision made between husband and wife. A family is not a democracy but if your wife is using the kids to manipulate you that is a different, bigger problem.

[Anonymous]

hawkgrrrl wrote:

You have your whole lives to pay for, and you only have the productive years to do that. Utah has good and bad points, but I wouldn’t go there without having a job already, enough to offset your losses.

I would never just pick up and move without a job…I’ve heard of people doing that, but that’s not me. I’m really conservative. The rest of what you (Hawk) and Steve-O says makes sense.

Family dynamics are democratic — people will have to take me at my word on that one…I’ve written articles on participative management, and it’s been my personal style for the last 30 years. It’s when the family wants me to do something that drastically changes the status quo, and for me, is clearly bad judgment, that I often dig in my heels. This is one of those times.

Individually, they put pressure on me, I find, to change it, but it’s not coordinated.

I just want to say thanks for everyone who took the facts as I’ve presented them (without assuming there’s a dictatorship culture) and have echoed my own assessment for the most part.

[Anonymous]

SilentDawning wrote:

what kind of a person thrives in Utah?

Of course there are as many individual experiences anecdotally speaking as you need to make any given point, but I can speak from mine, which is going to include a lot of generalities. First answer:

Depends on the part of Utah. The nicer areas to live in as far as great neighborhoods and schools and such tend to be along the east mountain shelf. Before I moved to Utah, I heard stories about how it was very divided and people were very snobby about “which side of the tracks you live on.” It is my experience that it is true. You can almost draw 3 lines through the valley parallel to the mountains, and coincidentally you can almost feel the income changes across the blocks. There are some parts where it switches and west is OK but it’s mostly east. I live in Bountiful which is very snobby. I love the area. It’s very safe and beautiful. Like I said- schools are awesome. But here you find the highest number of pharisees and fakes and church bullies and I have a hard time with that. There is a middle few miles that start just west of myhouse that has more of a mix of people, and a few blocks more west of that is a very different crowd. The higher the income, the more conformism there tends to be.

Nice but more conformist areas that I have experience:

Alpine/Highland

much of Utah County

Bountiful

West Bountiful City

Centerville

Farmington

Kaysville

Fruit Heights

North Ogden

Areas that I find less than desirable but also have a more “forgiving” crowd in my personal experience:

West Valley

Most of Layton

Most of Ogden

I know this might not mean much to you now if you don’t know the area but if your daughter is moving there it might become surprisingly relevant. Also I do want to be clear that it’s JMO and my experience. There are the baddies in ALL areas, and good people in ALL areas. But as far as the better areas who I think does best are:

The keep up with the Jones-ers

The stay at home moms who sew matching outfits

If you are not Peter Priesthoods or Molly Mormons– you hide it well

TBMs with no unique ideas of their own

People who not just keep their lawn perfectly manicured but report their neighbors for any imagined “violations” because they are only doing the right thing

People with perfect children who serve missions and get married in the temple

(Essentially judgmental types)

You know… there was a news spot on time on Utah’s passive aggressive driving problem. Some police report it is higher than here than most places. They reported that the number one reason people would pull in front of other people and slow down is because they claimed they felt it was their right and duty to slow down the speeders because they had to “do the right thing.” I totally see that in many Utahns. I have lots of stories but won’t go there for now. It really is something you have to see from the inside to get it.

My kids have a hard time in school where they are because the culture is very polarized. You have your TBMs (with fakers) and then there are the bad kids, and there is some in between but not much. If the “good kids” decide to reject someone, it sort of seems like the only other option is the bad kids. I keep encouraging my kids to find the middle ground, but Bountiful is very hard that way. I am sure the exist but harder to find.

My best guess for your daughter’s experience is that the TBM Utah mormons will spend way too much time vacillating between trying to “fully convert her” so that she conforms, and judging her. She might also have a hard time with dating because it’s hard to find a guy that doesn’t want a Molly or Jack(ie). Is that a thing? lol! She might not appreciate that experience. I haven’t. But it would probably be am experience she needs or else she will always blame you for being a dictator and not letting her try what she believes will make her happy. I hope that doesn’t turn her anti. There are far too many people that got pushed too far and became anti and hateful and I don’t think that is right either. But who knows? Maybe I am wrong and she will find her niche here and live happily ever after.

[Anonymous]

Thanks — lots of information there that describes the area conceptually.

Incidentally, my daughter gets along with TBM’ers very, very well — the wealthy ones (so far, provided they are not arrogant). We’ll see how her trip goes in November. At this point, most of the training and transmitting of values has been done with her. So, it’s time to acceot whatever she chooses to be.

Sadly, she doesn’t approve of the way we do things in our family, and disapproves of some of my attitudes toward the church, as well as some of my habits. She even made the comment she can’t wait to get out of the state, and out of the house.

She’s a good kid — and perhaps its teenagerism, but she rejects our family culture now, and told me today that “when I have my own family, a lot of things will change”. I expect her to come home from this TBM family in Utah feeling even worse about our family. Which is disheartening, because as little as a year ago, I was her greatest hero.

My hope is that in 10 years she’ll respect me again after she gets some life experience.

[Anonymous]

As someone who has lived in Utah all my life (well, 95% of it), I agree with a lot of what RagDoll Sally is saying—but not all of it. Local leadership roulette is just as big an issue in Utah as anywhere else. Great local leadership in a ward can make a huge, positive difference, no matter what area of the state you’re in. I feel like I had a really great ward and community growing up in Utah Valley. I would have been a great target for bullies as a kid, but I never experienced it, not in church or in school. I have honestly been shocked at all the reports of church bullying I’ve heard lately. I’ve either been naive or just living under a rock, but I never would have expected such awful behavior from members of the LDS church. I’ve never known anyone like that in my own wards in Utah. In my experience the greater problem is conformist thinking. I might be moving again sometime soon to get closer to work, and it will likely be to one of the most conformist areas of all Mormondom: Provo. I dread that.

Anyway, sorry that I don’t have any real advice on your problem. I really hope you can figure out something that works for you and your family.

[Author]

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