Seminary/College/Kids

[Anonymous]

So…

my two oldest are in seminary.

They both dislike it, but get up to go when we take them.

If I have to drive, I also have to take ALL of the kids with us (at 5:30am). So, I tend to not take them when it’s my turn (which it usually is).

I really want to let them stop going to seminary, but I’m pretty sure that is short-sighted.

Is it? :think:

Neither of my sons have a lot of interest in attending church schools, but I’m afraid that we will lose them to the world if they don’t attend a church school (meaning, if they attend away from home).

Already my oldest dislikes church, never closes his eyes for prayer, and is generally grumpy about religion.

But I’m pushing for church school applications just the same.

My thinking is that if my son is around kids who are fun and also going to church, it may help him want to re-evaluate his relationship with Heavenly Father. Right now, our ward has no kids his age who could provide that kind of influence. He’s basically it.

But…to get into a church school, seminary graduation is required.

I tend to overthink things, especially when it comes to my oldest b/c it’s new for me and I want to do it right.

I don’t want to mess up this parenting thing.

So, any advice here would be welcome, especially from parents who have been here before.

:thumbup:

[Anonymous]

QuestionAbound wrote:

Already my oldest dislikes church, never closes his eyes for prayer, and is generally grumpy about religion.

I could say the same, even the open eyes thing, but I’m not sure where they land on religion in general, I just know that they loathe church. Church is a stodgy, sterile experience for them. It can also be a place where kids go to get reprimanded for being a kid. That and 3 hours. Three hours! (if you’re lucky)

QuestionAbound wrote:

Neither of my sons have a lot of interest in attending church schools, but I’m afraid that we will lose them to the world if they don’t attend a church school (meaning, if they attend away from home).

What makes you think that you’ll lose your children if they attend a non-church school? I’d venture a guess and say that there are more members of the church that don’t attend church schools than ones that do and the ones that don’t turn out fine. Maybe I could understand a little better by knowing what you mean by losing them to the world.

So I already said that my oldest is in a similar boat as your oldest. At this snapshot in time I fully expect them to be done with the church the moment they are old enough to leave the house. There’s always room for change though. DW says that she was the exact same way at that age but experienced a change. Just because someone doesn’t see the need for something today doesn’t mean that they won’t have that need tomorrow. I don’t want to build up false hope though.

I’ll try to approach this subject carefully, I don’t want to offend. Is attending seminary, attending a church school, and remaining in church the spiritual journey that you want for your child or the spiritual journey that they want for themselves? I realize it’s tricky when it comes to people that are too young to have the necessary experience to have a direction in life. Parents provide guidance at that age because they know what’s best for their children, otherwise kids would have candy for dinner every night. That said, there comes a time when parents run the risk of imposing their path on their children. These days I’m big on people being able to follow their own path and it’s a struggle to know how to ease my kids into that transition.

I’m a convert so for me the story was my parents (reluctantly) letting me follow my own path of joining the church and serving a mission. They didn’t like that decision, understandably so. I was joining a religion that was foreign to them, I was interrupting my education to serve a mission. It’s understandable. Their protests were out of a concern for me. I had my path to follow though. Protests became persecutions that only helped to strengthened my resolve. Now I look at my oldest. If they decide to leave the church, adopt a religion that is foreign to me, or follow some other path, will I make it as hard on them as my parents made it for me? It depends on the church. That’s where my thoughts are at. Sometimes life has to be experienced. Most lessons are learned firsthand.

I don’t have an answer to the seminary question. I struggle with that one myself. Force my kid to do something that they’ll hate on the off chance that it will give them an experience that they otherwise wouldn’t have had? A part of me says that making them do something that they hate only makes them more resentful of that thing. Another part of me says that it’s an experience to be had, they may not like it, but they can’t have candy for dinner all the time.

Another thing I struggle with when it comes to seminary is the studies that show that teens need sleep. Early morning seminary is the only option here and I worry about how the sleep deprivation (let’s face it, teens aren’t going to go to bed any earlier) factors in.

QuestionAbound wrote:

I don’t want to mess up this parenting thing.

Don’t worry. The instant we become parents is the instant we start to mess up. Just my way of saying no one gets it perfect, don’t stress about it too much.

[Anonymous]

We’ve been through this with some disagreement between my wife and I whether church school is really necessary. BYU has a squeaky clean appearance, and the social environment does lend itself to staying on the strait and narrow. But, kids do go off the rails there as well, and there is a LOT (a LOT) of guilt inducing stuff there. It’s not right for every kid. And BYU/BYUI/BYUH do not offer all majors and are not top schools in some majors – so that is something to take into consideration as well. I’m not sure BYU is the place to send a kid to “straighten them out.” There are a couple kids in our ward who dropped out of BYU and returned here to go to school because their attitudes just didn’t fit. They are both inactive. My daughter graduated from BYU and is in grad school but is also inactive and toward the end of her BYU time only went to meet requirements (one is considered active by most bishops by attending once a month). One of my sons at BYU home teaches a couple of barely active kids that live in campus housing – one actually asked that he not come. I don’t think BYU “cures” kids who are already on their own divergent paths.

That said, all four of our kids attended or attend BYU. All four went to seminary, although the last one did some online seminary (which I highly recommend).* I don’t think seminary graduation is a requirement for admission but it does carry some weight as I understand it. BYU is a bargain for members. In my state in state tuition is about the same as BYU tuition but as alluded to above, some of our state schools have better and more highly esteemed programs than BYU.

*I know early morning seminary is seen as the “gold standard” by most TBMs but I strongly disagree. I think my kids who went there bleary eyed and foggy brained got little out of it and it probably affected their more important grades to some extent. My youngest did some online seminary and I actually think he got much more out of it because he had to do more than just sit there – he had to interact with the stuff. I’m not sure they have it everywhere, and while they are pretty open about letting kids in here despite the existence of early morning we still needed to justify why (they accept transportation issues such as yours as a justification). The way it works here is that daily lessons are opened up weekly by the instructor and the student does the lessons at his or her convenience sometime during the week. The lessons involve reading scripture and answering questions online and each one takes about a half hour. There are also a weekly online video sessions where all the students and the teacher interact, again lasting about a half hour. My son didn’t do the lessons daily, he usually did them in a couple sessions a week, mostly on nights when he didn’t have games. There is also a “make up” opportunity for missed lessons built in. For many reasons I don’t know why the church is stuck in this early morning thing when it’s clear to me that my son got much more out of online and I’m pretty sure he did better in real school while doing online. I’m sure there are many who will dispute that and talk about all the “blessings” of early morning in a testimony meeting – but they have not had the experience of doing it differently.

[Anonymous]

DarkJedi wrote:

But, kids do go off the rails there as well, and there is a LOT (a LOT) of guilt inducing stuff there. It’s not right for every kid.

So true. There are things in the culture here that can be harmful for *some* kids, regardless of their activity.

DarkJedi wrote:

I don’t think BYU “cures” kids who are already on their own divergent paths.

BYU doesn’t keep kids active. It does, however, make things rather horrible for those that do go inactive. My sister graduated from BYU and is now ex-mormon. One of the major factors in the anger she feels towards the church is the way BYU administration effectively expels those who go inactive or leave, and the double life that made her live. She had depression and was, at times, suicidal in her last year here.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

My thinking is that if my son is around kids who are fun and also going to church, it may help him want to re-evaluate his relationship with Heavenly Father. Right now, our ward has no kids his age who could provide that kind of influence. He’s basically it.

I am going to 2nd everyone else. There is no guarantee this will happen. My brother who is still TBM and was when he went to BYU suffered horrid depression and self esteem loss while at school. He had friends, a ward calling, etc., but something in the environment wasn’t helping. His Bishop was sure it was sin related depression. I am sure it wasn’t. I knew my brother and he was/is squeaky clean heart and soul.

BYU is no guarantee of any God-relationship. Non-LDS schools can be just as wonderful or horrible.

To feel and know God is really a personal thing. Plenty of people who have left the church still know God. Still love God. And still make the world a beautiful place. So do plenty of atheists and agnostics.

[Anonymous]

I hated early morning seminary. I believe that offering an online version as an option is a no brainer.

I did enjoy LDS institute at my state college. I did decide to serve a mission.

I did enroll at BYU for a summer (received 19 Spanish language credits that transferred back to my state college as general education credits). I do not recall any questions about seminary attendance (although they did make me shave before they would assist me at the registrar’s office).

[Anonymous]

I don’t think I have the inside track on this answer, although my own experience is VERY mixed. I was a bit wayward and sorted things out while at BYU, but that was 30 years ago, and BYU is not the same place at all. Everything that was intolerable there (Honor Code narcs, self-righteous weirdos, conflating conservative politics with the gospel) has been ratcheted up to the nth degree now. We didn’t have to do a new ecclesiastical endorsement every year when I was there, just one to get in. Now they are testimony policing students and requiring church attendance. I basically almost never attended church while at BYU until I was a sophomore. I’m sure those who love the current environment would say they’ve raised the bar and I was unfit, but sticking around on my own terms was a huge part of why I found a way within the church. It would have been a million times easier for me to go to state school with my friends, but I would have certainly left the church and not looked back. Ultimately, my parents wouldn’t give me any option but BYU for two reasons: 1) tuition was about a third the cost of anything else I had access to, and 2) they wanted me to marry a Mormon, unlikely in a state where less than 2% of the population was Mormon. So for me, it was probably the difference between staying & going. I was only a seminary grad on a technicality. I quit attending halfway through my senior year, but they graduated me anyway.

My oldest son went there for one year, hated it, and was a closet unbeliever going in, apparently (as was I when I went). He was afraid he’d lose his credits if he couldn’t pass the ecclesiastical endorsement (which I knew would be fine because our bishop was supportive), and he wasn’t going to church. He paid the difference in his tuition to change to ASU. My son was a seminary grad, president of his class, etc. As he later told me, all the kids in our ward in his graduating class were unbelievers.

My second son is currently at BYU-I. He hates it, but mostly he hates school in general. He wants to be home and go to community college which seems like a huge downgrade to me. Given the branding, most employers won’t know that BYU-I isn’t as reputable as BYU-Provo. He’d like to go to ASU like his brother, but he’s introverted and struggles to make friends. I think it will be very hard for him to stay in the church if he doesn’t stick with BYU-I, but he hasn’t exactly flourished there either. We’ll see how it turns out.

My daughter says she doesn’t want to go to BYU, and honestly, I think she’ll be fine wherever she chooses to go. I think she’ll also be fine in the church, unless things change for her along the way. She’s very set on attending seminary and going to the YW activities, and I don’t pressure her at all. She’d probably say I try to talk her out of it half the time which I do.

Given the thousands enrolled at each of the BYU schools, you’re more likely to find liberal-minded relatable Mormons at BYU than anywhere else. Possibly also at a UVU or U of U or Utah State or even one of the southern Utah schools, but harder to find a wide variety of Mormons at a school outside Utah. If there’s an institute, that’s a way to meet others who are Mormon. There’s also a lot of pressure to be sexually active or drink in other places which then make it hard to stay active. Personally, I think there’s very little for our young singles in the church. It’s a tough existence.

[Anonymous]

Early seminary really bothers me because of decreased sleep and because that time could be spent on more productive subjects (like math). I would like to know how many of the Q15 actually went to early morning seminary vs. release time and if they have any idea how hard it is for these kids.

I have four kids: one who graduated from early morning seminary, one who is a junior and who faithfully attends (but doesn’t like it), and two who haven’t started seminary yet. All of my kids do well academically and are pretty self motivated. The oldest one is a freshman at ASU, and was accepted to BYU but didn’t want to be surrounded by Mormons, but didn’t figure that out until she was a senior in high school. (Disclaimer – I’m a BYU graduate). My child who is a junior has her heart set on BYU and knows she has to graduate from seminary. She drivers herself to seminary and it’s never been an issue but she thinks her seminary classmates are Neanderthals and her teacher is closed minded. Seminary for her is a checkbox only.

My philosophy has evolved over recent years. When my oldest started seminary we basically forced her to go in spite of health problems – daily migraines. By the time she was a senior she had decided that she wanted to finish seminary because of her friends but she experimented in many different ways and I’m just glad she’s part of my family still and will talk to her parents. Honestly I don’t care if she stays in the church as long as she stays in the family and I’ve told her that.

With my younger two boys (13 and 10 years) I’ve told them they don’t have to attend seminary and they should decide for themselves if they want to be in the church as an adult or serve a mission. My wife disagrees with my approach and she encourages them more strongly than I do to attend church and seminary.

My experience is likely shaped by my oldest daughter. She made some very risky decisions as a senior in high school partly because I was so rigid with her, but after counseling for her and for me and my wife we’re in a good place. Honestly I just want my kids to be happy, to have a good life, and to want to be in my family. If that means occasional seminary attendance I won’t care one bit.

Also I want to point out that sometimes we think BYU and BYUI are the only options for good kids. That simply isn’t true.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

“I would like to know how many of the Q15 actually went to early morning seminary vs. release time and if they have any idea how hard it is for these kids.”

Zero and no. But there’s definitely a drum beat of “We need to teach these kids that they can do hard things.” Even if those “hard things” are just fake hard things that we are deliberately making harder just to make them so.

I posted on this recently: https://bycommonconsent.com/2016/08/15/early-morning-seminary-and-sleep-deprivation/

And also in 2014: https://wheatandtares.org/2014/11/18/the-early-morning-seminary-conundrum/

[Anonymous]

Thread Jack

Quote:

Even if those “hard things” are just fake hard things that we are deliberately making harder just to make them so.

This – Yes – Crazy.

A young woman in my ward bore testimony (after a Trek Experience (no getting in the weeds here)) – That her take home from the event was Hard Stuff Makes It True. All I could think of was “Yes, every holocaust victim feels the same way.”

Thread Jack Done. We return to our topic in progress.

[Anonymous]

hawkgrrrl wrote:

I posted on this recently: https://bycommonconsent.com/2016/08/15/early-morning-seminary-and-sleep-deprivation/

And also in 2014: https://wheatandtares.org/2014/11/18/the-early-morning-seminary-conundrum/

I had read your post from a few months ago but I’ll have to go read the one from 2014 also.

One more thing to add – some sports programs at the local high school conflict with early morning seminary. The stake won’t grant permission for the kids in those sports to do online seminary, even if it’s only for the duration of the sport. The kids must choose between early morning seminary and the sports program. It just makes me so angry. I hope one of my kids wants to be a cross country runner so I’ll have an actual reason to challenge our stake’s policy.

[Anonymous]

nibbler wrote:

What makes you think that you’ll lose your children if they attend a non-church school?

Just because someone doesn’t see the need for something today doesn’t mean that they won’t have that need tomorrow. I don’t want to build up false hope though.

I’ll try to approach this subject carefully, I don’t want to offend. Is attending seminary, attending a church school, and remaining in church the spiritual journey that you want for your child or the spiritual journey that they want for themselves?

First, in my area, the universities are party places. Party as in, if you are on campus during the weekend, you are drinking somewhere…which leads to a whole host of other things.

Part of me says, “Well, I should expect him to experiment, right? I did. I eventually came around, but I never stopped attending church.

I agree with the “need for something today” comment.

No offense with your last question: MY hope is that my kiddos will learn to love the Lord. Attending seminary, church school and remaining in the church is a journey that could help them develop their testimonies. But, that goes back to what you said: Just because someone doesn’t see the need for something today doesn’t mean that they won’t have that need tomorrow.

Part of me feels like I need to let go and let my son make his own choices (of course), but then the other part says that if he’s left to his own devices, he’ll end up a drug addict with 10 baby Mommas. ha ha!

[Anonymous]

Roadrunner wrote:

hawkgrrrl wrote:

I posted on this recently: https://bycommonconsent.com/2016/08/15/early-morning-seminary-and-sleep-deprivation/

And also in 2014: https://wheatandtares.org/2014/11/18/the-early-morning-seminary-conundrum/

I had read your post from a few months ago but I’ll have to go read the one from 2014 also.

One more thing to add – some sports programs at the local high school conflict with early morning seminary. The stake won’t grant permission for the kids in those sports to do online seminary, even if it’s only for the duration of the sport. The kids must choose between early morning seminary and the sports program. It just makes me so angry. I hope one of my kids wants to be a cross country runner so I’ll have an actual reason to challenge our stake’s policy.

In our stake they do allow school athletes to do online. That was our real justification for my son actually. While I have heard the SP say several times that early morning is preferable, he also recognizes that doing online is better than not going at all (at least from his point of view). Our stake actually called a kid’s parents as home study teachers just for him so he could make up a year of seminary. The SP is very focused on “the one” and the one can often be a kid.

[Anonymous]

I hadn’t heard about online seminary. My youngest daughter might have chose that option so she could transfer to a HS that didn’t offer released time but was larger and had programs more suited to her interests. She enjoys seminary, and i did too when I was in HS, and for whatever reason, she wants to graduate from seminary.

Graduating seminary used to be a piece of cake. Just attend or mostly kind of attend and behave yourself most if the time. A couple years ago, however, they upped the requirements or raised the bar. It was during another daughter’s senior year, when she was also taking 8 college classes. She did not read the required material, or lie like most of her class mates did saying she read all the required material from the past three years. Rather, she just said, fine, I don’t have to go to the dumb seminary graduation. She saw absolutely no value in it. To her, honesty beat a piece of paper. I was surprised that more effort wasn’t made from her teacher to get her to graduate, but maybe there was that I wasn’t aware of. It didn’t bother my daughter (who is very heterodox in her beliefs and far more mature cognitively and spiritually than I ever was at that age). She obviously had no interest going to BYU.

In my experience with four children who have or are attending seminary, one liked it, one currently likes it, one tolerated it but bit her tongue frequently, and one liked the teacher but got into disagreements frequently with the “closed minded, Molly types ” (but still graduated).

Based on my experience talking with students who’ve done early morning and released time, I think the instruction is far better with released time. They are professional teachers who are paid to teach, not called because they have some interest. I’m sure there are wonderful early morning teachers, but for the most part it’s like comparing a typical Sunday school teacher with someone trained practiced (at least based on what I’ve seen and heard). Released time instructors also teach about four or five classes a day compared to one in the morning, so naturally (usually) also get better at it. However, with the increased and increasing requirements for HS graduation, released time is becoming more and more difficult to do. It really limits what you can take and leaves little wiggle room in most schedules. Also, for students who struggle in HS and may fail a class, taking seminary makes it even more difficult to graduate.

I’ve wondered if it might be better as a lunchtime “devotional” sort of thing, rather than a full period class.

I’m sure it helps many kids. I think most kids like it because the teachers are usually young and energetic. As they get older, the teachers seem to move on to other positions like institute.

[Anonymous]

QuestionAbound wrote:

nibbler wrote:

What makes you think that you’ll lose your children if they attend a non-church school?

Just because someone doesn’t see the need for something today doesn’t mean that they won’t have that need tomorrow. I don’t want to build up false hope though.

I’ll try to approach this subject carefully, I don’t want to offend. Is attending seminary, attending a church school, and remaining in church the spiritual journey that you want for your child or the spiritual journey that they want for themselves?

First, in my area, the universities are party places. Party as in, if you are on campus during the weekend, you are drinking somewhere…which leads to a whole host of other things.

Part of me says, “Well, I should expect him to experiment, right? I did. I eventually came around, but I never stopped attending church.

I agree with the “need for something today” comment.

No offense with your last question: MY hope is that my kiddos will learn to love the Lord. Attending seminary, church school and remaining in the church is a journey that could help them develop their testimonies. But, that goes back to what you said: Just because someone doesn’t see the need for something today doesn’t mean that they won’t have that need tomorrow.

Part of me feels like I need to let go and let my son make his own choices (of course), but then the other part says that if he’s left to his own devices, he’ll end up a drug addict with 10 baby Mommas. ha ha!

I think pretty much all schools that are not religious private schools are party places – and some of the religious ones are as well. I’m not saying the environment at the BYUs is not very good in many ways. It is good and the schools are good with good programs. I live in an area where there are very few members. After his brother graduated, our youngest was the only member (active or not) in his high school. Don’t be fooled, high schools are party places too – but that probably is another topic. What I am saying is that if a kid is prone to party anyway the opportunity is there, at least in Provo – they just have to work a little harder at finding it. Church schools are great for most kids and I’m not sad or upset that any of my kids went to BYU. Your son will make his own choices despite whatever you do and despite whether or not he attends BYU. All I am saying is that for some kids BYU helps make more church oriented decisions (and there is a lot of pressure to do so) but for some kids it can be an alienating place and a big part of the reason they don’t want anything to do with the church.

[Author]

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