- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
So if you have read my posts you will see that I think Brian’s essay on how to stay in the Church is amazing, and all of your insights have proven so supporting and helpful. However, I am really considering resigning and want to just throw my thinking out there in hopes you all can point out flaw or overreaction on my part. I did some EDMR emotional therapy yesterday,with an lds counselor, and realized that much of the anxiety, stress, shame, and trapped feelings come from tough things I had to face as a child. Generally, that I had to shut up what I wanted, because whatever I wanted was selfish and bad, and so I needed to sacrifice my wants to the greater good. Feeling so shamed I tried to gain approval by showing I can walk the straight and narrow and sacrifice myself and found peace and solace in doing so, until teenage years came along. I also learned nothing by experience, but only cow towed to the axioms I had been told my whole life obediently, whether I believed them or not.
Like you I still find edification in Church. I teach in my ward and usually leave feeling more insight and with love for my friends there. I am at peace with what the Church is and does, and why people follow it. Unlike many of you, however, I don’t believe many of the doctrines and I certainly don’t believe it is THE authority on truth.
I want to quit because I need some autonomy. I need to break from the cycle of doing stuff because it is right, or because I had a feeling, or made this covenant,or because the social costs will be so great. If I am to have the peace of being true to myself I feel like I need to cut ties completely. I read the parable of the seeds that are sewn. I think that the fertile soil is a well-adjusted man with integrity who has humbly learned through experience what is important to him and sought God with open, humble heart. That is not me. I was humble and open but I was TOLD from a youth that this is the way and all other ways are folly, evil, and lead to pain. I never really took the chance to test the claims for fear I would be seen as evil or fall into an eternal trap, which I now feel is bogus. Basically, I have chained myself to the elephant, and while there are many things I love about that elephant, and may even want that elephant back, I don’t want to be dragged by it anymore. I want another chance to choose, but being better informed, better educated, and more experienced in who I am and what I want and whether I can really handle that.
This all becomes tougher when I think about my devout wife, who thinks this is a product of depression, and anxiety, and my son who will be baptized in a few months. By the way I asked him why he wanted to this a.m. and he said it looks cool to go under the water, and to have everyone watch him.
IDK. I am not going to be rash. I hope this is an OK forum to vent this. I don’t want to bring down anyone else’s faith. I truly respect those of you who stay, and still love the Church. I just feel like, I might need to go.
I will check reposts and let you know what I decide. But I solemnly vow to stay away from exmo
Warmest Regards to you all,
Broofturker
Thanks for your thoughts, I sincerely appreciate the struggle. I know my and other hearts are with you. My first reaction is cut the chain – but don’t confuse the symbol of the chain (church membership) with the actual chain itself. I don’t know whether you need to take the strong symbolic action of resigning your membership, but definitely take the power and responsibility of your own decision making into your personal possession. Cut the actual chain, try not to get too lost in symbols.
I hope that makes sense.
I tend to think that one of the biggest mistakes most members make is confusing the symbol with the reality.
Aloha Broofturker, I understand what you’re feeling. Isn’t there any other choices between, Full Activity & Resignation?
There was a time when I was completely inactive. I wrote a letter to my Bishop explaining how I felt & asked to close out my membership.
He asked to see me. Because of my inactivity, he really didn’t know who I was. I talked with him & he said that he would do what I asked but
he preferred that I didn’t do that. It was about 3 or 4 years later that we started to go to church again. This time on my own terms.
I like your approach:
Quote:I am not going to be rash.
You also said:Quote:I have chained myself to the elephant…
(A very interesting choice of words.)
There has to be other ways to unchain yourself from the elephant, other than resigning your membership. For some, that maybe the best choice.
My advice is:
* talk to people. In Church & outside of church. Especially your wife.
* review how your decision will impact the people closest to you.
* review what activities in church that you do like.
* if you decide to resign from church, fill your time with something else that you do enjoy. (volunteer maybe)
I’m sure you will get a lot of suggestions here.
I wish you all the best.
Keep us informed.
Hi Broofturker, I am not one of the board moderators here but I do identify with what you are going thru and I like the humble way you present your issue. I too am struggling with staying active and understand what you are saying. I’m only going to address a couple specific points in hope of helping you and myself. broofturker wrote:I want to quit because I need some autonomy. I need to break from the cycle of doing stuff because it is right, or because I had a feeling, or made this covenant,or because the social costs will be so great. If I am to have the peace of being true to myself I feel like I need to cut ties completely. I read the parable of the seeds that are sewn. I think that the fertile soil is a well-adjusted man with integrity who has humbly learned through experience what is important to him and sought God with open, humble heart. That is not me. I was humble and open but I was TOLD from a youth that this is the way and all other ways are folly, evil, and lead to pain. I never really took the chance to test the claims for fear I would be seen as evil or fall into an eternal trap, which I now feel is bogus. Basically, I have chained myself to the elephant, and while there are many things I love about that elephant, and may even want that elephant back, I don’t want to be dragged by it anymore. I want another chance to choose, but being better informed, better educated, and more experienced in who I am and what I want and whether I can really handle that.
I think you and I need to search for truth on our own, in places like this forum and with other like minded people. I can no longer take the GA’s talks verbatim then create my world view and paradigm. I need to establish my own then listen to the talks subjectively.
IDK. I am not going to be rash. I hope this is an OK forum to vent this. I don’t want to bring down anyone else’s faith. I truly respect those of you who stay, and still love the Church. I just feel like, I might need to go.
I will check reposts and let you know what I decide. But I solemnly vow to stay away from exmo
Warmest Regards to you all,
Broofturker
You have a family that would be missing out on your spiritual companionship as well as leadership. That’s not meant to be a compelling reason rather a look at opportunity passed up. My wife too is very loyal and active to a fault and my son just left on his mission. It would be doable to be an observer and supporter but I went to the temple and stayed active for their sake and am real glad for the experience I would have otherwise missed. BTW, my son made his choice all on his own without any feed back or reservation so that was a great help.
Now might be the time for me to step back and regain my faith in my own way, stronger and without bogus claims and warnings. The church is not the only source of spiritual knowledge but it is the one that was RESTORED. That alone is what sets it apart. It’s not a “one and only church” but it does have keys and authority that others don’t have.
Sorry, don’t mean to testify. I just feel those things are clear. I read the intro to the BoM just this morning and it just hits home with me. Check out my post “Loosing My Grip” for some wonderful replies and references from others here. Hope it helps.
Hi Broofturker. I will echo Mikes thoughts and also add a few. I always liked options and information and to choose things on my own terms in my own way without persuasion. You can already probably tell the problems that caused for me at church growing up until i fit the “proper mold”.
I lost myself to the point I didn’t know who I was or what I wanted anymore, even with time to think.
I suffered greatly from tough love inside the church and with my family going on churches advise.
The teachings are better now but still full of black and white thinking, expectations, and conformity and authority.
All things I care next to nothing about. I had very nearly died from attempted suicide from growing up in a severe tough love church culture. I say these things not to be “depressive” but to let you know in my own way I can relate.
After returning to church on my own terms after years of therapy I discovered a world I had a lot in common and also drastically different. I began to lose myself in the church again and I didn’t want to repeat my life again.
I still decide to go but set certain limits on them so as to not voilate mine.
Being polite but assertive is key in church and life. Authority will do what it will do because responsibility has always been used as a justification for many things inside and outside the church. But set boundaries, all relationships weather authority or not is a mutual relationship based on mutalrespect, mutual trust and mutual love.
For those that insist on a one way relationship it will be very draining and ultimatly not worth the effort. In church as in life I now have come to view everyone as equal, I love and respect the church but those inside it must abide by the same princaples as outside the church in my life. To respect my opinions, value me as me, and build a relationship that isn’t one sided or conditional. If they can except that we can work together and do much, if they choose to insist on a servant master relationship then that is in them and I’m gone but will gladly welcome them back if they decide to establish a mature respectful relationship.
That is my advice to you. To “know thyself” and to establish self respect as well as maintain respect for others. Unconditional love doesn’t mean being a puppet or living your life for someone else or subjecting yourself to a master servant relationship. But try not to limit yourself or your options. You may decide later on to choose a option you threw away. Sound like you need to take abreskmas I did. There is nothing wrong with that especially in the context of learning to “know thyself” without outside influence. Then you can truly know who you are and truest own your own decisions. And that’s worth all the time and knowledge in the world.
Please take care and do what is best for you but try to always leave options open should you later decide a path to take that you can truly own for yourself.
Best of luck and blessings to you.
I do believe that some people would be happier outside the church but there are barriers to exit as well as to entry. A young single guy might have significantly lower “switching costs.” What does it mean to family relationships/dynamics? I personally don’t think God is concerned about whose name is written down where. He has counted all the hairs on your head and accepts you in love. He wants what is best for you and those around you. Arthur recently gave an amazingly introspective account of his own resignation FWIW:
Quote:Ultimately my faith crisis became my literal mid-life crisis. It was based entirely on how I felt about myself as a member of the Church in good standing who performed the performances and carried out the will of an assortment of authority figures above me.
Emotional triggers began feeding my new found curiosity about the hidden “truths” in the LDS reality and history that led me from one fact to the next. My outrage at having been hoodwinked and having felt gullible caused the self-ignited flaming to grow hotter and hotter. That “heat” eventually became intolerable for me and I was so angry I just felt that the only way I could punish the Church and “make” it sorry for having hoodwinked me was to repudiate it publicly.
I requested name-removal from the membership records in 1991 but had to do so several times before a good bishop took care of it in 1999.
By then, although no longer white-hot angry at the Church, I was still sufficiently full of contempt for the Church that I kept requesting removal until I got my wish. At that time my non-member wife I had been married 3-4 years.
So no, I’m not glad I left. Were I to get a do-over I wouldn’t have done so. It was a mistake on my part because even after all that time, I was still acting rashly out of anger. I would have been better off simply walking away, going totally inactive and ignoring the Church rather than requesting membership termination.
My wife (who was baptized the day I was re-baptized) and I have discussed this recently. She told me that had she been a member back in 1999 – knowing and aware of all that she knows and of which she is aware today – she would have asked/counseled me not to sever the tie with the Church formally as I had done.
Back then I had no inkling of what I was doing to my own sense of identity. In severing myself from the Church, I emotionally tried to sever myself from my culture – to deny who I really am in terms of cultural and spiritual identity.
As I have said elsewhere, for me personally leaving the Church meant a willful leaving of the culture; in a sense, tearing off my own skin.
I did not return to Church membership out of belief in the proselyting presentation and truth claims of the Church.
I wanted to reclaim the identity I unwittingly gave up.
I have done that.
I have no problem advising some people to resign officially, but, honestly, I can’t give you that advice based on what you wrote. The analogy that came to mind is killing a fly in your china cabinet by throwing a rock at it. You might kill it, but you also are going to shatter a whole lot of beautiful china in the process – and some of it belongs to and is precious to you. I do NOT mean at all to apply any sense of guilt or shame to the option of leaving. I don’t believe in that approach, at all. I just think there are lots of ways to deal with a situation like yours without shattering the china.
Doing something extreme, almost anything, nearly always is easier than finding a way between the extremes. The extremes have extreme consequences, but even extreme consequences often are easier to excuse by blaming the action on others than more moderate actions are to make when the responsibility can’t be thrown at someone else.
My advice is simple but not easy:
Decide to own your activity level – how much you can do and what you can do.By that, I mean that it’s okay to do less than everything. Even our scriptures say it’s not good to run faster than we are able, so slow down and walk at your own pace, increasing the pace until you find your own comfortable speed. People might tell you the faster you go, the faster you will be able to go – but, at some point, over-exercise leads to muscle deterioration and negative physical effects. Don’t let ANYONE else decide how fast you should walk / run.
When we lived in Missouri, I served on the High Council – and we attended only Sunday meetings and most Wednesday night activities. We were on a really tight budget and lived 40 minutes from the church. I attended the required meetings associated with my calling, but pretty much nothing else – and I didn’t drive home before going to them. I went straight from work, which meant I went in dress slacks and a polo shirt sometimes – with everyone else in full suit and tie.
My philosophy is:
If they call me, they get ME– and I am the only person who can define ME. I liked Ray’s analogy of a rock to kill a fly. My response to my wife, who’s no longer active has changed over time. Recently I said to her that if the only way for her to get emotional closure was to remove her name from the records then I wouldn’t oppose it or try to dissuade her.
But… Equally, I suggested to her that if she wanted to retain some association with the church or simply to avoid the hassle, then I didn’t see any issue in leaving the name on as it offered far more flexibility in the future.
No-one’s going to go after her from a church discipline perspective as her life choices don’t warrant it. So it’s not like she (or by the sounds of it, you) needs to jump before she/you are pushed.
The biggest flaw in resigning is that it is an act whereby we almost are asking permission to leave, or at a minimum, are asking (depending on) the social “power” holder to validate our broken chain. In a some ways it’s a dis-empowering act. It’s impatient. It’s drastic. Some people really do need a symbolic act. There is real power in that. Just like baptism is symbolic of joining the church, resignation is symbolic of leaving. So I am not saying it isn’t without value. And it most certainly is the best choice for some people.
There are many ways to test the waters and explore your feelings about disconnecting from “the chains.” If nothing else, just go out and enjoy yourself doing what YOU like one Sunday instead of going to church. I don’t know, that’s just a small example. Go out to breakfast and then go for a hike in nature. See what that feels like, and don’t feel guilty about it. God doesn’t really care nearly as much as we think. Can you enjoy doing what YOU want?
I’m no therapist, but we always recommend going slow and trying things out. We were all raised with ideas of all-or-nothing, righteous-or-wicked, follow every “commandment” perfectly or run out and become a crack-addicted prostitute bank robber. You know what I mean. But life isn’t really like that. Maybe you just need a break for a while to gain perspective?
Once someone resigns, it’s such a hassle to keep connections in the LDS community if you want to, or even just to show up to a church activity if nothing else. It’s all awkward. It’s way easier to be inactive
😆 I’m an expert.The chains are broken when you simply take them off, and don’t let them bother you anymore. That is something that happens inside your heart, not on a piece of paper, or in a few keystrokes into the database at church HQ.
I suggest trying to peel the onion, and address one thing at a time to try to find what the issues are that really need to be changed in your life, and what things you are actually OK with holding on to. You know, don’t break the whole China set just to get rid of a fly. It really sounds like you need a break. So take one.
What does resigning help accomplish that stopping to attend church wouldn’t?Is there a difference from saying “I don’t believe all of it” and “I must have the church take me off their list”?
I am also in the camp of not really believing it matters to God whether you are in the church or out of the church. He looks upon our hearts, not church records. If that is something you could accept as an idea to test…then answering the questions above may change, depending on your point of view of things.
I think there is some good advice here already. I would just add to it that I believe Brian is right:
Quote:“The biggest flaw in resigning is that it is an act whereby we almost are asking permission to leave, or at a minimum, are asking (depending on) the social “power” holder to validate our broken chain. In a some ways it’s a dis-empowering act. It’s impatient. It’s drastic.”
Being in the church isn’t the chain. The church isn’t the elephant. The elephant is imaginary, and so is the chain. Like Dorothy at the end of the Wizard of Oz, you had the power all along. You just didn’t realize it. You do have the power and the autonomy. You just have to own it. You can be in the church on your own terms or out of the church on your own terms. Resignation is the church’s terms. You are still coloring within the lines.
I just saw King John (Shakespeare play) this week, and one of the themes in the play is about power, including religious power. King John’s kingship is contested because his young nephew Arthur is possibly next in line for the throne, but primogeniture wasn’t established, so it was actually unclear who is supposed to rule. John takes over, but then France sides with the young Arthur in opposition to England. To get past this dispute, John proposes a royal marriage: his niece Blanche of Spain to the Dauphin (prince of France). The match is made, and France and England are allies again. Then Rome intervenes from out of nowhere and starts bossing everyone around. They threaten John with excommunication to which he basically says “get lost,” so they ex him. Rome tells France they have to consider John and England an enemy, which they agree to do and take up arms again. But before too long, John is back in good graces with Rome, and Rome is supposed to deliver France’s support to England again. France has had enough stating that Rome hasn’t put any of their own money in, they have no army or soldiers, and they want to call all the shots. France basically says they won’t be pushed around any more, England is still their enemy, and you quickly see that Rome really has no power that they aren’t given by these sovereigns. I think it’s an interesting parallel.
Quote:France basically says they won’t be pushed around any more.
How did that go?
😆 I like the analogy. We really do have more power and control than we tend to think.
I have thought about resigning many times…and when I read your post, these thoughts come to mind: 1. Membership in the church is merely an electronic record in their membership database. It has no real significance until we attach importance to it.
2. Try as they might, if you do not hold a TR, the church leaders and members don’t have a lot of power to make you do anything if you don’t want to do it. There may be social pressure, but that disappears as soon as you move into a different stake, and sometimes, even a different Ward in the stake, as you may well some day….
It also disappears when you decide to stop caring about what the members of the church think about you (something I have had to work at).
3. Resigning makes it much harder to come back at some point in the future if you want it. That might seem like a remote possibility right now, but remember, there were probably times when you wouldn’t have considered resigning. You may want to come back sometime, even though it seems remote at this time. Life changes you at different times as you have new experiences. Life may take you in a direction that makes you want to be a member again — at some level of commitment. Why make it harder to come back over your status in the church’s computer system? Keep your options open.
4. If you can avoid looking at this next statement as social pressure, then read on….the church may be working for others in your family (such as your wife) — why make this symbolic act of resigning and dishearten the people around you given your unique perspective at this point in time?
I say these things because I am in a similar position — where I gave for reasons other than pure, intrinsic motivation for many years. Then I got tired of it, and disappointed with the ego-centrism implicit in Church policies.
Part of me wants nothing more to do with the church, but my wife and daughter are very engaged with the whole experience. So I attend, clean out my wallet, read my kindle and use the travel time to be with my children and wife. They feel supported. I use FHE to teach them things about life in general as any parent might. Not about church. I neutralize the things that hurt people in the church (attitudes).
And I serve mankind outside the church now. And its liberating. Essentially, I am still a member on the electronic records, but my time and commitment is dedicated outside the church now, beyond Sunday attendance and a secular HT visit now and then.
I would reconsider resigning and keep your options open. Stay on the electronic records. Declare your independence with the personal beliefs you hold, where you direct your service, and the boundaries you set with the Church. For me, its more liberating to be a church member on my own terms rather than simply resigning.
I agree with so many comments here, brain, hawk girl and silent have made some very insightful remarks. I want to add that I enjoy serving in all forms, I just don’t let people tell me how, why, where, when anymore.
I guess that’s because I operate a lot differently now. People in the church or any organization organizing from a inside out perspective with the why we do what we do approach instead of the what we do approach gravitate people making decisions mostly with their “limbic system”. It won’t make since to people making choices as I and others do anymore with our “neocortex”. It seems your decision to give people power over you encourages decisions made in the limbic system which is where I bet my soul that the Holy Ghost comes from. Which is why we have such a hard time explaining it since it can’t construct language. I say this because I think choices we make should involve both the limbic system and neocortex.
Most of our decisions are made from the limbus system as a part of historical genetic use. But we have to be comfortable using our rational side with our emotional side. Once I realized that most of my decisions were made using mostly or only the limbic system and it usually results in unhealthily irresponsible behavior. It hurts that we are trained to reinforce this type of thinking without the other. But in fact Mormon theology belief is that we use both in balance. Something sorely taught in the classroom or GC now since the Holy Ghost (limbic system)is usually focused on.
I want to wish you luck in what ever decision is most healthy for you. Having said that, I hope their is more people like you at church to talk to. We certainly need more out of box thinkers with which to relate and talk and exchange ideas with to make both the world and less church a better more progressive place to be.
The past is wonderful to study but looking at it to much we can loose sight of the present. The present needs a lot of attention and a lot of forward thinking ideas if we are to succeed moving forward.
I hope we come to an age where we welcome all people who have a love for sharing and compassion for fellow children of god no matter their beliefs, ideas or traditions. Where it really is about “charity” without a host of “ifs” “ands” or buts”.
I think we can slowly move their if people who are out of box thinkers with charity don’t leave, choose to stay and influence just as Steve jobs did. What ever you choose, you can choose not to let a system of people in it out of the church tell you where the corridor is, where to walk down and walk the line. Choose to help people, help yourself, on your own terms in your own way and with your own inquiry gifts that you have to offer.
No one can replace anyone. I tend to miss the uniqueness that everyone has once they are gone, I know I’m not the only one. They are usually the silent type though, not as vocal as people who are used to a certain way.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.