Shawn’s Introduction

[Anonymous]

He was. Joseph and Brigham’s jedi knights. Or was he a sith?

[Anonymous]

I suppose Porter Rockwell could be a descendant of Qui-Gon. Either way, I think Mike has some good power going on and I like his style.

[Anonymous]

There’s a chance I’m related to Orrin too.

Mike from Milton.

[Anonymous]

I’m late to the party. Welcome to the community! Have you seen the other two Nephites lately? How are they doing these days? I haven’t seen them since my car broke down and they fixed it

[Anonymous]

One of my bros is in Syria trying to keep things from getting too crazy and the other just got fired from his job for saving a man from drowning in south Florida. And I’m here working out my issues

[Anonymous]

Nephite wrote:

Hi, everyone. I’ve been around this forum for a little while and want to introduce myself now. I’m in my mid-thirties, married with children, and live in Utah. Very unique, eh?

I crashed after my mission, meaning I fell into a depression. I have constantly battled with it. I have also come across a lot of stuff from history regarding the LDS Church and my testimony has received a lot of bullet holes. At times I have done a lot to repent and live right, but I was still miserable. I have sometimes stopped believing in God.

I hope to find support on this forum. Support so I can find my way. Thanks.

in all sincerity and concern:

in the now two weeks that you have been here, are you getting the support you need?

what would constitute finding your way?

would you like to cure the bullet holes in your testimony as if they never happened?

what final outcome do you expect from stayLDS?

middle ways are not for everyone. i have been on this path for decades, and there were many times i wished i never got on it. i don’t wish faith transition on anyone, but i hope to be able to help those who have lost faith find the peace i have found in accepting the truth of the church, without having to accept the man made artifacts in it.

if you are looking for faith repair, or for a healing from the bullet holes, so that you can regain a true believing testimony, then i don’t know if you are in the right place. speaking for myself, i can’t assist you in restoring a broken testimony. maybe others can here. not saying you aren’t welcome — you are, we open our arms in love and support to fellow travelers. it is just that our help may not help repair your testimony.

i am much happier today, closer to my family, and significantly more spiritual than i ever was as a true believer. and even as a true believer, i felt so close to the spirit that i felt the fullness of the atonement as i had a personal witness to having my sins completely removed and forgiven. i felt the lord tell me that he accepted my sacrifice, that my calling and election was sure with him. (little did i know that this can only happen through the ordinanc of the second anointing…but that is another topic.)

but without question, after 20 years of dedicated faith journey, i am clearly not orthodox in my belief. i express here my inner beliefs without apology, and how i stay LDS thereby. as you try to teach me the orthodox LDS position you hold, i truly am left puzzled if i can or should share with you my unorthodox experience, strength, and hope, for (1) i already fully know the orthodox position, (2) am not interested, and (3) don’t have any desire to sway a believer away from the orthodox position.

if possible, i really would like you to answer the questions I raised earlier:

in the now two weeks that you have been here, are you getting the support you need?

what would constitute finding your way?

would you like to cure the bullet holes in your testimony as if they never happened?

what final outcome do you expect from stayLDS?

[Anonymous]

wayfarer wrote:

in the now two weeks that you have been here, are you getting the support you need?

what would constitute finding your way?

would you like to cure the bullet holes in your testimony as if they never happened?

what final outcome do you expect from stayLDS?

I have not been getting support. I appreciate your questions and I realized I am looking for a faith repair, and it is possible because I believe it is possible. The bullet holes can be cured, but they will leave scars so I will remember not to meddle with material that damages my faith.

I came to this forum because, from the Mission Statement, “this is a safe place to discuss difficult subjects” and “we also openly discuss solutions that have helped people in the community reconcile themselves, and find a new, personal path of active faith within our rich LDS tradition.” Finding a middle way is one of several options after experiencing a testimony crisis.

I would like to hear about experiences people have have had in finding their way back. I know there are some people here who are at least mostly orthodox. For some reason, sharing such experiences are taboo here, and that shouldn’t be the case. “…We also accept many orthodox ways of framing many things. We have no particular vision that all must accept….”

[Anonymous]

Perhaps repentance is in order in my case — I certainly do want you to feel safe in sharing here, and hope you can find a way to forgive my reactions.

You’re a really good person — I sense it — I like the way you think and discuss here — I would like you to stay.

One aspect of ‘orthodoxy’ is the concept that a specific way is the only way to be. You invoked that in saying that one ‘must’ believe X to get a TR, which to your great credit you softened. When any person says that one must believe X and not Y, then it’s no longer a safe place for those who subscribe to Y and not X. So…the implication is that one single aspect of ‘orthodoxy’ needs to be set aside: that ‘orthodoxy’ is the only way.

Likewise, there are those that believe that a Middle Way is intellectually dishonest. That’s offensive as well — it’s kind of the same as the orthodox who claim that only the orthodox way is right. And that doesn’t work for everyone, not by a long shot. Either way, saying that someone must to X or believe X for a TR, or condemning people for believing X because it’s intellectually dishonest is not helpful; hence the ground rule of not ‘judging’ others for their belief or non-believe is in order as a primary ground rule — even if that ground rule runs contrary to orthodoxy.

Can we live with that ground rule? I hope so.

I’ve seen you post on things you believe or are trying to restore faith in, but I’m not sure I have seen where you are struggling with your faith. Maybe I’ve missed that. If you want to repair your faith, expressing where the bullet holes are may be the first step. I think here on StayLDS, you’ll hear more alternatives for how to repair those holes, ranging from true-belief options, to the more creative options from heretic wackos like me. You can take what you need, and leave the rest. What you won’t hear, hopefully, is that the solution is to leave the church.

You asked people to share about finding their way back. That’s what I’m doing, if you read my original introduction here. But in finding my way back, I have had to reframe my beliefs into a paradigm more attuned to factuality than dogma. I can testify to you that it works. for me. but I cannot testify that it works for everyone. As you read what I have to say, it’s acceptable to say, “I’m not sure I could make that work for me”, rather than saying, “I cannot see how you can say you are a faithful LDS with that kind of belief.” One expresses where you are, the other tries to tell me where I should be. enough on this point.

We really do want to help, to support you, to assist you in finding the right way for your life. As you open up to express your doubts and concerns, I’m sure we’ll have ideas for you. Opinions are like armpits: everyone has a couple, most probably have interesting odors of one kind or another…

[Anonymous]

Nephite wrote:

For some reason, sharing such experiences are taboo here, and that shouldn’t be the case. “…We also accept many orthodox ways of framing many things. We have no particular vision that all must accept….”

I’m not sure I understand your statement, Nephite. What are you hoping for, and who is making you feel sharing experiences is “taboo”?

Is it, perhaps, you want the 12 step program that applies to everyone to recover from a crisis and return to church happy and content?

I don’t think there is one way to StayLDS. It is not that I don’t share it because it is taboo…but I don’t know how to share it. I only know what I’ve been through…and I’m happy to share it if it helps you.

You may want to ready my Introduction since I tried to chronicle my journey…and yet…I’m still journeying.

I will bump up my Intro to Heber13 titled: “Conflicted TBM”.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the reply.

wayfarer wrote:

One aspect of ‘orthodoxy’ is the concept that a specific way is the only way to be. You invoked that in saying that one ‘must’ believe X to get a TR, which to your great credit you softened. When any person says that one must believe X and not Y, then it’s no longer a safe place for those who subscribe to Y and not X. So…the implication is that one single aspect of ‘orthodoxy’ needs to be set aside: that ‘orthodoxy’ is the only way.

I ask that you compare what I wrote to this:

wayfarer wrote:

The idea of an afterlife may be true or not, but it isn’t proven from any evidence at this point. Did we live before? Do we endure after? Nothing here is proven: if a person actually lived before, the veil prevents any proof of it. If a person lives beyond this life, then “proof” would be an unmistakable voyage to and from the afterlife in a way that could not be mistaken from a dream or premotion: again, an unprovable. If John the Baptist came back from the afterlife and ordained Joseph and Oliver in the flesh, ‘proof’ would be in some form that could not or would not be suspect to the concept of ‘spiritual eyes’.

We don’t have proof for these things. They are neither proven or disproven, so to say the ‘truth’ is to say ‘we don’t know’. That is a very important concept:

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

Nephite wrote:

For some reason, sharing such experiences are taboo here, and that shouldn’t be the case. “…We also accept many orthodox ways of framing many things. We have no particular vision that all must accept….”

I’m not sure I understand your statement, Nephite. What are you hoping for, and who is making you feel sharing experiences is “taboo”?

I need to clarify what I meant there. Consider it like this: I would like to hear about experiences people have had that helped them regain a TBM testimony of something. I know there are some people here who are at least mostly orthodox. For some reason, sharing such experiences are taboo here, and that shouldn’t be the case.

That’s what I was going for. I will check out your introduction.

[Anonymous]

nephite, that’s not taboo. There have been some cool experiences shared over the past week, and it happens quite regularly. Honestly, you haven’t been around long enough to see how often it happens.

You might try going into the archives and reading some posts from the “Spiritual” section. Not all of them actually are ultra-spiritual, but there are some cool things in that section.

[Anonymous]

Nephite wrote:

It appears you mean that if someone here says “I know x, y, and z to be true,” then that is not the truth – they must be lying because there is no solid proof and it must be unknowable. I believe it might actually be known by some and that should be respected.

granted. I know this is subtle, but ‘not the truth’ is not the same as lying, but i can see how you would get there. What I mean to say is that there is a difference between “I know” used in faith setting and “I know” used in a normal setting. The standards for ‘truth’ in faith often appear to sound like knowledge, but to be clear, “Faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things.”

As we journey through faith transition and repair, understanding the difference between faith and knowledge is very important. Unless we know the difference between faith-based knowledge and factual knowledge, the two tend to be in collision course with each other.

Nephite wrote:

wayfarer wrote:

I’ve seen you post on things you believe or are trying to restore faith in, but I’m not sure I have seen where you are struggling with your faith. Maybe I’ve missed that. If you want to repair your faith, expressing where the bullet holes are may be the first step.

You are right – I have not yet specified my concerns. I am still apprehensive about that.

I think you’ll find that when you’re comfortable, you’ll get a lot of help. take our time.

[Anonymous]

wayfarer wrote:

yup, the lamanites didn’t get killed off. Their DNA morphed into Mongolian/asiatic DNA.

I love this fact that we’ve proven through DNA testing. I guess maybe the mongolians and orientals are all a lost tribe of Israel too

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

nephite, that’s not taboo. There have been some cool experiences shared over the past week, and it happens quite regularly. Honestly, you haven’t been around long enough to see how often it happens.

You might try going into the archives and reading some posts from the “Spiritual” section. Not all of them actually are ultra-spiritual, but there are some cool things in that section.

Thanks for pointing those post out. I have actually been here longer than a couple weeks and I am guilty of overlooking positive things! I have been going through the Spiritual Stuff section and found other good experiences. I never thought anything like that was officially taboo, but I’ve seen a couple threads where someone says some orthodox stuff and then it’s as if crickets chirp and the thread dies. But that’s probably not common or intended.

[Author]

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