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PiperAlpha wrote:
‘s a great to have experienced leaders at the helm. It seems to me they get more gentle and compassionate with age and experience.
I agree they do generally become more gentle and compassionate.
Quote:Remember, we do have emirates status. So there is a precedence for “retiring” if the church leadership felt like there were critical issues requiring more capacity
Yes…Emeritus Apostles? It seems fine to me. They are messengers to the whole world, and travel requirements are rough. It takes men with stamina to do it effectively.
BTW, I would be interested to see a list of the ages prophets were when ordained. You know, to see the historical trend (or not). Does anyone happen to know this already?
I know this doesn’t exactly answer the question, but I found this: The mean age of a prophet when ordained in 73-years-old.
http://www.moroni10.com/mormon_trivia.htmlhttp://www.moroni10.com/mormon_trivia.html” class=”bbcode_url”> If you take out Joseph Smith, that number would obviously creep up a bit.
turinturambar wrote:I would be interested to see a list of the ages prophets were when ordained. You know, to see the historical trend (or not). Does anyone happen to know this already?
JS – 24BY – 46
JT – 71
WW – 71
LS – 84
JFS – 62
HJG – 62
GAS – 75
DOM – 67
JFS – 93
HBL – 73
SWK – 78
ETB – 86
HWH – 86
GBH – 84
TSM – 80
On Own Now wrote:turinturambar wrote:I would be interested to see a list of the ages prophets were when ordained. You know, to see the historical trend (or not). Does anyone happen to know this already?
JS – 24BY – 46
JT – 71
WW – 71
LS – 84
JFS – 62
HJG – 62
GAS – 75
DOM – 67
JFS – 93
HBL – 73
SWK – 78
ETB – 86
HWH – 86
GBH – 84
TSM – 80
One positive thing about having such old fellows become the prophet is that none of them have a particularly lengthy reign. When McKay became prophet in his 60s it set the stage for a 20+ year run as president. When a guy takes over at 80+, though, even accounting for the remarkable longevity of these guys, you can be pretty certain it won’t be a decades-long run as president. So it’s a kind of natural term limit. Maybe we should only elect congressmen and senators who are over 80?
😆 :clap: :shh: Hmmm, looking at the list, looks to me like the youngsters (JS and BY) were the most prone to setting themselves up like kings (secular leaders, not just religious ones – unfettering their power), and also the most prone to introducing radical social change – for the worse in many cases. With JS we got the United Order, polygamy, a few wonky translations, and a run for the presidency. BY took it one further with total isolation, mainstreaming polygamy, setting himself up as supreme ruler in the west, and the priesthood ban. What have the older guys done? Repealed polygamy, put Mormons firmly under government rule vs. their own, repealed the priesthood ban (perhaps a hundred years late), instituted missionary training centers, family home evening, seminary, made Word of Wisdom mandatory, shortened the temple ceremonies, and turned our worship services into McMeetings. Still, which list do you prefer? I’ll take correlation over the Deseret alphabet any day of the week and twice on Sunday. But I do still think the sweet age would be between 55-60. Then we could also move them to emeritus status at 72, like Moses being taken up in the whirlwind.
Medical advances are keeping people living longer too. Mind you, just breathing isn’t always living. I think it would almost be an unfair curse to have a centenarian trying to act as prophet to the general body of the church, he would probably feel very much like Bilbo, thin, sort of stretched, like butter scraped over too much bread. It would be an act of kindness to have emeritus apostles, who can go out with dignity, and not have to be held up at the pulpit as poor elder Wirthlin a while ago. And yet, ReflexZero, at least two of Elder Wirthlin’s most powerful sermons were delivered in the general condition you just described – and I will never forget the amazing illustration of the message he was delivering in that exact talk you mention when Elder Nelson stood and supported Elder Wirthlin so he could finish it. That picture was worth a thousand words – and the words themselves were sublime. (Seriously, go back and read that talk, with that image in mind. Stunning.) I don’t want any decision to be based strictly or even primarily on age, but I wouldn’t mind a policy that allows emeritus status for apostles, including the President.
Here’s another thought. Wirthlin was great, very loving and accepting, yet was in incredibly poor health. Bednar is a spring chicken yet thinks engagements should be broken off passive aggressively because of someone’s jewelry. Age isn’t a proxy for everything. In answer to the topic question, my thoughts are Yes. If someone is at a mental and / or physical state where they are no longer ‘with it’ then the only honest thing to do is step down, they could even use the ’emeritus’ status, it would show the church to have a pragmatic as opposed to dogmatic management style which would be refreshing.
And older leaders have made racist comments about jazz, obsessed about jewelry, little factories (and gays), white shirts, feminists, intellectuals… and instead of the Book of Mormon we get the Miracle of Forgiveness…. instead of sincere missionaries we get schoolboys railroaded into the role… instead of new scripture we get textbooks written for idiots… Give me the Kinderhook plates over Hoffmann any day… or Nauvoo temple over that COB monstrosity. Did anyone actually watch the youtube link?
brit-exmo wrote:In answer to the topic question, my thoughts are Yes.
If someone is at a mental and / or physical state where they are no longer ‘with it’ then the only honest thing to do is step down, they could even use the ’emeritus’ status, it would show the church to have a pragmatic as opposed to dogmatic management style which would be refreshing.
As CWald says, just remember who’s next in line, and *he’ll* never resign…
Elijah was still alive when his mantle went to Elisha. Moses to Joshua, ect… So I see room in the theology for there to be a “retirement” and another take the mantle of Prophet. I would love a 55 year old leading the church, heck I would love a 30 year old…. but iam grateful for those we have too Quote:Elijah was still alive when his mantle went to Elisha. Moses to Joshua, ect… So I see room in the theology for there to be a “retirement” and another take the mantle of Prophet.
Great point. We have the scriptural precedent.
Old-Timer wrote:I will never forget the amazing illustration of the message he was delivering in that exact talk you mention when Elder Nelson stood and supported Elder Wirthlin so he could finish it.
That action was the best sermon of all.
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