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I have heard it said before that the opposite of love is not hate but indifference. This seems to be where I am now concerning the church. I never thought this would happen. The anger/feelings of betrayal are gone, but instead of being left with a feeling of peace, I am left with nothing.
I don’t care if my kids stay in the church, I am hoping they don’t end up marrying in the temple, and deep down I have to admit that I would respect them more if they left (sorry, but ’tis true
I still try to get online and read posts in this forum every few days, but my general feeling of apathy prevents me from posting replies. Please do not take this to mean that I do not respect your discussions – I DO! I just feel like I no longer have anything useful to contribute.
For the past few months I have repeatedly reminded myself of all the good that exists in the church that makes it worth staying for… now it all seems so artificial and contrived. I feel like such a pretender. Maybe this would be different if I had some sort of faith left, but I don’t even know if I believe in god at all anymore (did I ever?).
The only thing I can think about regarding the church that I still care about is my calling as the yw counselor over the beehives, and it is absolutely because of how much I care for those wonderful girls. I feel like I am so far gone regarding my feelings for the church, that I seriously question whether or not it is ethical for me to stay in this calling. I am extremely devoted to these girls, and choose my words very carefully around them (one of them is my own daughter) but it is inevitable that I am going to be required to teach them things that I simply don’t believe… I don’t think I can do it.
I was truly hoping I would be able to find some happy middle ground that would enable me to stay in the church at least until my kids left home. My heart just isn’t in it. Plus, I am really not sure I want my kids raised in the church anymore.
What has happened? How did I just stop caring? Is this just another stage/phase I am going through? I have a bedside table full of books (RSR, Rise of Modern Mormonism, Inside the Temple, etc) and I just look at them now and sigh, and end up reading something else. Maybe I just need a break from thinking about it so much?
Any advice/opinions on what I should do about my calling?
I have already asked the RS pres to take me out of the VT program… it was driving me nuts… this in itself will probably be a red flag to the bishop. Oh well.
BTW, so far DH has been very understanding and loving… I am married to a wonderful man.
Quote:What has happened? How did I just stop caring? Is this just another stage/phase I am going through?
It is a classic stage, and it is characterized as the state of not wanting to struggle and hurt any longer. It’s like the wall every athlete hits when she pushes herself to the initial limit. Sometimes, it’s best to stop for a bit and continue later – since sometimes it’s a sign of real harm in continuing; sometimes, it’s best to push through it and get your second wind. I wish I knew what to tell you about which it is, but I don’t. My gut tells me that, at the very least, you need to take a break from LDS Church-specific reading and find something edifying to read that has nothing objectively to do with the Church – something simply spiritual and invigorating to you, even if it is something that you might otherwise classify as cheesy (like the Chicken Soup for the Soul stuff or Jonathan Livingston Seagull [showing my age] or whatever).
Quote:Maybe I just need a break from thinking about it so much?
Yeah, just recharging is a good thing. Even God did it on the seventh day, according to our creation mythology. If He needed to take a break, I think He’ll understand us taking a break occasionally.
@asha You sound so down and depressed. I feel for you, I really do. I wish I had the magic to make it better for you. I think I have experienced something similar. I too needed a break from Mormon things. I stopped reading any church related books, and focused on other books. I didn’t attend church, and stopped praying in an orthodox way (still meditated). Since then, however, things have gotten better for me. Now, when I miss church, I actually miss it and wish I was there. I think this is simply because it is a part of who I am (born TBM obviously).
My advice, asha, would be to not be afraid, ashamed, or worry too much about your feelings to not be involved. Simply put, if the church doesn’t work for you, get rid of it. If you get to a place where you see some value in it, then pick and choose the parts that do work for you. I don’t think there is any shame in this. In fact, I would argue this is wisdom.
Even in your post here I sense that you have some shame about it “and deep down I have to admit that I would respect them more if they left (sorry, but ’tis true ).” Hey, no need to be sorry about it. I know that I am at a place where I wouldn’t think less of you, and I’m sure most people here would agree. In fact, I wouldn’t/won’t even try to convince you to stay. My decision to stay LDS has a lot more to do with what I’m comfortable with than whether or not I think there’s truth here. I have been a member my whole life. It works for me, even if I resent some things. I use the church (yes that’s right
usethe church) for what I want, and let the rest go. I feel that I contribute back to the Mormon community by helping other members (which in turn helps me), and by contributing some of my money (my own personal interpretation of tithing). Embrace your stage of apathy. Run with it, learn some new things, grow, develop, and become a better person, whether in or out of the church. But do keep us informed, I always felt I related to you a lot!! Try not to think of us on the forum as a pro-Mormon site. Rather, consider us a spiritual support group.
If it helps any I’ve been depressed when it comes to really anything “Church Related” ( mostly Sunday service and research ) since about Jan/Feb. I havent realized till about now that I am seriously wasting time feeling this way ( well up until a few weeks ago )! It really helps that I can talk to my DH about some things. He seems to open up the best he can. He has told me to try to follow the “Physical Rules” WOW and wearing garments ( basically ) even if the “Emotional/Mental conection” is gone. I agreed to try for the time being .. He also mentioned it being Fine with him if I didn’t want to go to the temple … He doesnt want me to feel uncomfortable – Which is a great relief! Even though the temple doesnt really bother me! – Kind of off topic BUT I enjoy the symbolism and the pondering and thinking – I just have problems connecting the physical requirments to enter BUT at the same time I deeply respect them and would only want to do it in the “Right” way.
About your calling – That is difficult and I have no great advice at all!
Your stage ( if that is what you are going through ) is probably very much needed. Your mind and body are probably letting you know it has had enough!
I KNOW it is hard to step away from .. Trying to figure things out .. Trying to redefine .. Trying to rationalize! It is Super Super hard for me.
I’m trying to spend only limited time reading posts .. I only read about one to two pages of RSR maybe every other day. ( It is my first Church History reading material )
I would say step away from all things “Holy”. I have some great books ( IMO ) just waiting to be read that have NOTHING to do with Church, God , being spiritual …. The Wicked Series … Just finished all of Harry Potter … A few poetry Books … A few Philosophy books ( They can be deep though ! ) . I have been trapped in this horrible Depression about “MY” religion … And I need to snap out of it. Take it one day at a time! And enjoy your days. Start doing fun things again … I went out and bought some paint – And I’m going to paint a picture of my baby
I wanted to add that we as individuals need to spend more time on finding what we like to do. Focus more on you – Find new things you like yoga, rock climbing w/e and then Share them with people you love. God wants you to find and use your talents … B/C being good and loving and sharing things make us happy AND they make other people happy. Loving the Church Life is kind of a talent in itself! If it makes you miserable should you put much effort into it? … Probably not .. At least for now. I’m trying to not let “The Church” get inbetween myself and God … IDK what I’m talking about anymore … Sorry. I just feel really bad for you b/c I know how it feels in a way .. And I know it hurts.
Edited one last time to add that I really like you ( even though I don’t know you ) .. One, your a woman ( and so am I ) so I feel like I relate with you … In a way .. Second I believe we think a lott alike. I only have best wishes for you! I admire you for trying … weather it is for yourself or your family or w/e … It is honorable.
Asha, It is interesting to me how your expressions are so familiar to me. Perhaps my difference was that I became active in posting here, but really withdrew at church.
I almost feel embarrassed to admit it, but I got to the point I actually doubted God even exists. Once I got to that point, I honestly didn’t feel anything mattered anymore, including my marriage. While I couldn’t believe I could ever get to that point, that was how I felt. Tithing, temple, word of wisdom, swearing … those were the least of my concerns if I didn’t know about God or my marriage anymore. Honestly, I couldn’t care about any of it.
Like you, I really wasn’t even mad at God (that I remember anyway). I just didn’t care. And I also found that it didn’t matter. The church moves on without me, my life moved on and I still went to work and did my thing. That was when I realized, living True Blue Mormon-style was not all there was to life.
But I also soon realized I couldn’t live in apathy for everything the rest of my life. Something has to be important to me. Something has to be my purpose. That was the start of my journey… setting out to find what I needed and nobody was going to make me believe God or church had to be a part of it. I needed to find peace for myself.
If it helps, just know I feel great empathy. And also know, that I feel I am growing as a person and feeling better, and you can too.
Quote:My gut tells me that, at the very least, you need to take a break from LDS Church-specific reading and find something edifying to read that has nothing objectively to do with the Church – something simply spiritual and invigorating to you
Be bold enough to change something in your life, but honestly seek something good and inspiring – exercise, wise secular writings, new hobbies, sleep in, plan date nights with your kids and see how their smile makes you feel … do something that makes you feel good.
Our paths may be similar in some ways, but I’m sure there are differences too. Feel free to post your thoughts or ask for my experiences, if that is helpful to you.
@asha – thanks for sharing that. My short answer is that, yes, apathy is a normal stage of human spirituality. Quote:it is inevitable that I am going to be required to teach them things that I simply don’t believe… I don’t think I can do it.
My best advice is to cherish the girls and when you encounter stuff you are supposed to teach that you don’t agree with, either just don’t teach it or open it up as a discussion for the girls. One thing some in the church don’t do a good enough job at is creating thinking, questioning youth. But they need those skills as they grow up. We should trust the youth more than we do. They don’t need everything handed to them, and many of them can even handle the nuanced tough stuff.
Quote:Maybe I just need a break from thinking about it so much?
Undoubtedly. I would suggest (if you haven’t read them) some books like Eckhart Tolle’s A New Earth, Don Miguel Ruiz’s The Four Agreements, Joseph Campbell & Bill Moyer’s The Power of Myth or even Paulo Cohelo’s The Alchemist. These are all spiritual books in their own right, and very helpful at getting out of your head and into your life. They are church and religion neutral, IMO, but very spiritually useful. They are good reminders to live in the present, a really good reminder to those of us who tend to over-think, over-read, and spend too much time on forums like this! Plus, it’s like getting a backstage tour of life.
Oh, and read some brain candy once in a while. Thanks guys, really, I mean it. Your words helped a great deal. It is a relief to feel that I am not the only one to experience what I am going through. I really think this feeling of emptiness is worse than the anger. When I was angry and disgruntled I at least still felt motivated. I had such a thirst for new information, it was almost obsessive, but it definitely felt better than not caring at all. Last night was a great pick-me-up. I had a beehive class activity at my house, and all seven girls attended. We spent the first half of the time at my kitchen table going through one of their personal progress value experiences (I am really pushing the personal progress program with them because I like teens to learn how to set and achieve goals), and then I brought out the potato chips and popcorn, and we played games and had fun. They had a blast, and so did I. Plus, when the parents came to pick them up they were thrilled to see that the girls had gotten a value experience signed off.
It seems like whenever I am ready to turn my back on the church altogether, I have a great experience like this. At the same time, I also recognize that this event took place at my house where I could control what was happening. I have a feeling that on Sunday I will be back to my former attitude.
I also still wonder if it is right for me to even be in this calling. These girls are trying to develop testimonies of their own. I can’t really be much of a role model for them in that regard.
I’m so confused. I think maybe the best thing for me to do right now is to not do anything. In other words, I will just continue to stay the course, but I think I will take the advice of taking a break from church-associated reading material for a while. Too bad my book club is reading a book I have already read this month. Maybe Ray’s right and I need some brain candy… maybe some mindless fluff like Stephenie Meyer (sorry if this offends anyone… I actually rather enjoy her books, but you can’t argue that they are literary junk food…exactly what I might need right now!) I’m pretty sure my daughter has all her books.
Sorry for babbling… I am just typing away as I think this out.
Quote:It seems like whenever I am ready to turn my back on the church altogether, I have a great experience like this. At the same time, I also recognize that this event took place at my house where I could control what was happening. I have a feeling that on Sunday I will be back to my former attitude.
I think you’re on to something with that. What things bring you back? What things push you away? Why?
That is how I have felt, and why I have stayed going, but last Sunday I just stayed home because I wanted a break. I allow myself to do those things now and don’t guilt myself for as much as I used to.
BTW, you sound like a great YW leader…caring about the girls is more important than caring about your calling and what things you are supposed to be doing as a church member, IMO.
Thanks for sharing.
asha wrote:My daughter told me that I do way more for the girls and seem to put more time into the calling than her last beehive leader, and she said she was confused by this because she knows I don’t have a testimony.
Well, if one has to have a testimony (in the traditional sense) to be a member, then I will be the first to go I suppose.Let me ask you a question asha. Do you have to have a testimony of any part of the church in order to stay? If so, why? I believe I see practical value in staying, independent of any of the various beliefs and doctrines in the church. Your touching story about the girls is exactly the reason. Plus being different in a group helps us grow.
My immediate, visceral reaction to your latest comment was: The girls need someone to love and accept them every bit as much as someone who will testify to them. In fact, they will have plenty of people testify to them; they need you and your love and concern, as well.
One of my favorite scriptures is 1 John 4:19, “We love Him, because He first loved us.” I think those girls will come to love God a little better by seeing your love for them FAR more powerfully than they will by listening to sermons and talks and lessons. They need those things in a real way, but they need your love every bit as much.
asha wrote:I’m so confused.
I don’t know if you read my intro but I was in the obsessive stage, the one right before the stage you’re in now, when I felt directed to resign. I’m saying this because even after I resigned, I still went through the “nothing matters anyway” phase. And, btw, if you come from a TBM forever family, when you leave, they say much worse things than that you’re weak.
This may sound really “new-agey” but I would cherish the melieu (sp?). I know that I have embraced all of the confusing, depressing, exhilirating, frustrating, crazy feelings because the alternative is I could be my dad. Wallowing in 65 years of guilt, shame, never being good enough. Which is where I was most of my adult life trying to be TBM for my parents, in-laws, bishop, etc., etc., ad nauseum, ad infinitum.
Disclaimer: May be insensitive
Before I resigned, When I was going through what you were going through before, ie, obsessed with church stuff, I went to the EQP because I was a EQ teacher and told him everything. He loved the discussions I provoked in class (eg. God commands us to be perfect, but does he REALLY want us to be?).
He said if I could keep to the manual that he had no problem letting me continue to teach. The next week he said they would be releasing me. Probably talked to the bishop, I suppose. My only point is: there are parents who may feel differently about their daughters being in your class if you disclosed your current state of thinking/testimony. I think there’s an ethical question to be asked. People choose organized religion for different reasons but there is a reasonable expectation in a rather orthodox organized religion that group think is valued and promoted.
Sorry about all the bad spelling, I’m not feeling it tonight.
swimordie wrote:there are parents who may feel differently about their daughters being in your class if you disclosed your current state of thinking/testimony. I think there’s an ethical question to be asked. People choose organized religion for different reasons but there is a reasonable expectation in a rather orthodox organized religion that group think is valued and promoted.
Yes I think so too… some parents more than others would have a problem with me if they knew my beliefs. I actually think it would be unfair for me to push my own agenda on these kids when their parents are trying to raise them to be true-believing members, so I don’t. I am constantly watching what I say, and I bite my tongue a lot. However, every now and then I think it can be helpful to let them see things in a different light. For example, as part of the value experience we signed off together on Wednesday night, the girls had to go through and discuss the yw values and how they can apply them to their lives. Most of them are pretty straightforward, but we had an interesting conversation on the value Faith. I told them that in the church Faith is defined different ways by different people, but if you look in the scriptures it clearly describes it as NOT being a perfect knowledge of things. Then I asked them how they thought that related to peoples’ testimonies when they get up and say “I KNOW this church is true”. I was able to get hem to see that if you really “know” something, faith is no longer required, and that HF isn’t asking us to “know” the truthfulness of the gospel, but rather to have faith and hope in it. I have to say a few of the girls looked visibly relieved, and said that it made much better sense to them. I told them that whenever I hear someone saying that they “know” the church is true, I just substitute the words “I have faith the church is true”, because that is what they are really saying anyway.I think it was a good discussion and helped them feel less insecure about their developing testimonies.
I think the area where I am more likely to get into to trouble in a doctrinal sense is in the teaching of Sunday lessons. They can be a real struggle for me. So far if there is something I don’t feel comfortable teaching, I skip over it. I don’t know how long it can last. I am sure there will be parents who will object to my slant on the lesson on temple marriage which was basically “there are far worse things that can happen in this world than marrying a non-member”.
At this point I think I am going to keep going for the girls’ sake until someone steps in and brings about my release. If at the very minimum I can help these girls to feel more confident and to trust their own judgement a little bit more, then I won’t have wasted my time.
asha, I’m going to try to say this correctly, so please pardon me if I can’t get it quite right. I almost didn’t post it, but . . . RIght now, it is perfectly natural that you want church meetings and callings to be comfortable for you. That’s a very basic Stage 3 orientation – and it’s hard to let go of that feeling.
When you have worked through everything and reached a degree of peace, much of that angst will disappear. In fact, I would say that is one of the clearest signs of truly beginning to leave Stage 4 – that church meetings and callings begin to cease being about you and your comfort. Your own personal, individual, private contemplation and study and efforts become about you, while your “group interactions” become about others. You begin to see with eyes that ask, “What can I share?” – instead of, “What can I not share?” Biting your tongue becomes about not hurting or damaging tender others – instead of about not being able to express yourself fully.
That transformation is amazing process, and I hope and pray you begin to catch a glimpse of what I mean as you serve your girls.
Old-Timer wrote:When you have worked through everything and reached a degree of peace, much of that angst will disappear. In fact, I would say that is one of the clearest signs of truly beginning to leave Stage 4 – that church meetings and callings begin to cease being about you and your comfort. Your own personal, individual, private contemplation and study and efforts become about you, while your “group interactions” become about others. You begin to see with eyes that ask, “What can I share?” – instead of, “What can I not share?” Biting your tongue becomes about not hurting or damaging tender others – instead of about not being able to express yourself fully.
I agree 100%. I won’t claim that I am in stage 5 or anything, it is definitely a transition. But in spite of my testimony (or lack thereof, as you all may be gathering on this forum) I really don’t feel the anger anymore. I am still a bit passionate about some things, but I just don’t have the anger. I still feel like I’m in the twilight zone at church, but that’s a reflection on differences of methodologies in interpreting information. I almost asked to be released a few months ago. But I’m very glad I didn’t. I teach 11-year old scouts and I really like it. It’s a great calling, and as Ray said, I worry more about what I can share, than what I can’t. I try to give the boys perspectives on life that they may not get elsewhere. I admit this would be more difficult if I were the Gospel Doctrine instructor, but it can still be done.Incidentally, do not misunderstand stage 5. Stage 5 doesn’t mean that you become orthodox again, or even necessarily believe the same things you once did. I look at Ray (stage 5 I would dare say), and I see that I have radically different beliefs (not claiming I am stage 5). But I also feel we have a lot in common, specifically in the “ends.” That is, seeing people through the lens of love. I see that Ray and I have very different methods of interpreting information, drawing conclusions, and making value judgments. But this is a normal part of life. At the end of the day, I feel a kinship with Ray in many of the things he says because of the end result. I don’t know if I’m making any sense here. Maybe Ray can parse it for me
Also, asha you said:
asha wrote:if you really “know” something, faith is no longer required
I am not convinced this is true. However, I am not quite sure how to articulate why. I’m interested in Ray’s take on this. What do you think Ray?
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