sigh… apathy is setting in

[Anonymous]

@Ray

thank you so much for your comments. I am definitely trying to take the approach of viewing church as a place to serve, not to be served. This week has been a hard one, but serving the yw seems to have helped to pull me out of my apathy to a certain extent.

@jmb

jmb275 wrote:

Do you have to have a testimony of any part of the church in order to stay? If so, why? I believe I see practical value in staying, independent of any of the various beliefs and doctrines in the church. Your touching story about the girls is exactly the reason. Plus being different in a group helps us grow.

In answer to your question, I think the church can be a good place to raise children, but it seems to require a certain amount of deprogramming – along the same lines that John Dehlin describes. I think you can raise great kids outside of the church, but in my own experience I think it is easier to do it within the church, maybe because of the community aspect of it. Do I have a testimony of any part of the church? I really don’t know. If that means do I see good in any part of the church, then I guess the answer is yes. I think the compassionate service and humanitarian aid aspects are wonderful, but at the same time I now pay my tithing to other charities that I think can do more with my money than the church. I think the clean living is great too, and I will certainly continue to follow the WoW to set a good example for my kids.

Already looking back at what I have written, it becomes clear that much of this revolves around my kids. This makes me seriously wonder if I will see any value in staying after they are grown and gone.

Disclaimer: going into atheistic territory… might offend some (sorry!)

I have said it before, that I think much of my problem with staying in the church long-term comes back to my lack of faith in general. I am an agnostic who tends to lean more towards atheism. I am not even sure anymore if I even “hope” there is a god, simply because I must admit that the idea of a divine dictator, even a benevolent one is distasteful to me. I guess most believers would see that as pride on my part, but I am just being honest. sigh. In light of this, you can see why a church that claims to be the only “true” church, and uses that claim to judge the rest of the world, is very unsettling and offensive to me. I tend to have a “live and let live” attitude towards others, and I am fed up with religion (not just LDS) thinking they have the right to tell people, even those who are not of their faith, how to live their lives. If everyone just accepted the fact that nobody really knows for sure what comes after this life, then maybe there would be less judging of others/ less oppression of others in the name of religion/ less guilt for things that are just natural/ less people blowing themselves up in the name of “god”/ less worldwide theocratic bullying in general.

End of rant.

You can certainly see why I think some parents might not want me teaching their kids.

[Anonymous]

I think the need for faith never ends (at least as far into the future as I can see), since I can’t see a time when I will know all (even as I hold to that ideal as a possibility), but I also think there are certain things that I can say I “know” – in the sense that I personally am not acting “in faith” anymore. Are those things “objective, absolute truth”? Perhaps; perhaps not. That might mean there still is an element of “pure faith” or “objective faith” involved, but I don’t care about intellectualizing it to that degree. For me personally, I am working on my own knowledge in those areas and not on faith – even as I am working on faith in most areas.

I’m fine with paradoxes, and this is one of those paradoxes I’ve accepted. In a forum like this, I can tease out fine nuances; in church, I don’t even think of trying – even though I say things very carefully to avoid misunderstanding.

[Anonymous]

asha wrote:

Disclaimer: going into atheistic territory… might offend some (sorry!)

I don’t know if anyone else has used this, I’m not claiming to have made it up but in terms of God, I’m calling myself a post-agnostic: Not only is God unknowable, but the knowledge is completely irrelevant.

Try to follow some logic here. What does the knowledge of God add to our experience as human beings? Assuming that God sent us here for a reason, He obviously wants us to learn and grow as much as possible. In order to do this, we need to discover, experience, learn, etc. ON OUR OWN. Yes, we are here for each other and that may be the greatest lesson of all for us to learn: to love ourselves and love others unconditionally, the way God loves each of us.

As for the hope of the after-life, I believe that this is where God would be most disappointed in us, His children. The obsession of religion for the after-life and to a degree, the apocalypse, is the single most irrelevant piece of information for the proper living of THIS life. The one and only chance we will ever have to be in mortality and we’re going to waste it obsessing about the next life? And by obsessing, I do mean valuing church callings above family, hobbies, occupation, leisure, etc. Serving others does not require church attendance. And church attendance and service for the sake of a higher degree of glory is not the lesson that God is trying to teach us in mortality.

I believe that this mortal life should be treated as much more precious than the after-life. We only get this for a few years, we have the after-life for eternity. So, which should we really be concerned with? If we can learn to love ourselves, stay present to show our love to others, and love life for the invaluable experience that it is, then the after-life takes care of itself (trusting Jesus Christ)

Asha, I love your posts, they are so honest and you’re obviously a wonderful person with a wonderful heart and I hope you continue to post here for us all to enjoy and savor.

[Anonymous]

swimordie wrote:

Try to follow some logic here. What does the knowledge of God add to our experience as human beings?

For me, it added an understanding of love, peace, hope and joy. Dang helpful, IMO

swimordie wrote:

Assuming that God sent us here for a reason, He obviously wants us to learn and grow as much as possible. In order to do this, we need to discover, experience, learn, etc. ON OUR OWN. Yes, we are here for each other and that may be the greatest lesson of all for us to learn: to love ourselves and love others unconditionally, the way God loves each of us.

My perspective is that you are right, except I don’t feel I am *completely* on my own, in that God does personally interact with me. But He/She/it doesn’t do so in a over-bearing way, or even a clear way, most of the time. There are exceptions, though, in my experience.

swimordie wrote:

As for the hope of the after-life, I believe that this is where God would be most disappointed in us, His children. The obsession of religion for the after-life and to a degree, the apocalypse, is the single most irrelevant piece of information for the proper living of THIS life.

This comment is what really caused me to reply. Some people have such difficult and otherwise hopeless lives that they *need* hope in something. A joyous, peaceful afterlife seems to work. Not only that, but both the afterlife and the ‘end-of-the-world’ serve a useful purpose, as do many other things in the gospel, to create a sense of immediacy. Some of us may not need it, but it does help a lot of people to decide to actually get off their duffs and do some good, to think that there may only be a short time to do it in. Coersion? Maybe. I think it does result in more action for good, though.

swimordie wrote:

The one and only chance we will ever have to be in mortality and we’re going to waste it obsessing about the next life? And by obsessing, I do mean valuing church callings above family, hobbies, occupation, leisure, etc. Serving others does not require church attendance. And church attendance and service for the sake of a higher degree of glory is not the lesson that God is trying to teach us in mortality.

Agree! We also need to learn to enjoy life in the moment, to enjoy the journey. I’ve heard more than one talk in General Conference lately, on just that point. As one who has met and talked with Elder Christofferson, I can tell you he’s in that camp, too.

swimordie wrote:

I believe that this mortal life should be treated as much more precious than the after-life. We only get this for a few years, we have the after-life for eternity. So, which should we really be concerned with? If we can learn to love ourselves, stay present to show our love to others, and love life for the invaluable experience that it is, then the after-life takes care of itself (trusting Jesus Christ)

I don’t see anyone arguing with you here, either. Good comments!

HiJolly

[Anonymous]

swimordie, the stuff that bugs the dickens out of you is exactly what motivates and energizes some people. The key, imo, is identifying what works for you, pursuing that, and letting others pursue what is effective for them.

What I about to say is not directed at you, swimordie. It’s just an observation from decades of observing and studying people and religion.

It is SO hard for many people to truly give up the idea that they know what’s best for everyone else.

It’s a Stage 3 element, and I think it generally is one of the last elements that gets ditched before someone moves fully into Stage 5. I think as we talk of any topic relative to the Church that we simply have to keep in mind that “my way is not others’ way”. If we can’t do that, if we hold onto the idea that those who do or see or believe or act differently than we do are wrong, or less informed, or less enlightened, or any other pejorative judgment, then we are doing to them exactly what they do to us that causes us to complain.

For example, there is NO guarantee that our intellectual and spiritual and emotional struggles have ANYTHING to do with the afterlife or our end result. There is no guarantee that those who appear to us to float blissfully along in life, attending meetings without any doubts or concerns or angst, doing what they are asked to do, never turning down a calling, etc. aren’t actually better off in the long-run. Maybe they spend their time serving others, while we spend our time obsessing on the internet. Maybe they truly consecrate their lives to God, while we can’t quite let ourselves do that – and maybe that gets rewarded somehow. Maybe God appreciates and rewards that type of dedication. MAYBE NOT, but maybe. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe.

The point is that we don’t know for sure, so we need to try to let go of our own self-righteousness and allow others to be whoever they are – loving and accepting them for who they are, not who we want them to be. We talk of how we want that from them; we need to be willing to give them that first – even if it never is returned to us by them.

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

What I about to say is not directed at you, swimordie. It’s just an observation from decades of observing and studying people and religion.

It is SO hard for many people to truly give up the idea that they know what’s best for everyone else.

As I stated in my intro, I’m new to this forum stuff, but I”ll take this as my first time-out. I’m sorry that I crossed a line because I have felt a spirit of calm and introspection at this forum. And I sincerely wanted to maintain that with my posts. Anything I posted was purely my opinion and, honestly, I don’t even know what’s best for me most of the time, let alone for everyone else. Obviously, I’m passionate about my opinion but it is truly stated with love, fwiw.

[Anonymous]

Don’t take it as a time out – unless that helps.

Seriously, I choose my words carefully, so I meant that I didn’t want you to think I was directing it at you. We free flow a lot here with thoughts that hit us as we discuss things, and, with me, my mind takes tangents all the time. (Actually, I really like that about myself – that I have learned to go with my thoughts as I read or listen to what others say.) Often, I read something, and by the time I am ready to write a response my mind has taken me five steps from the original comment in a chain of thought – and I end up sharing the end result of that contemplation rather than the initial thought that struck me as I read.

Whenever that happens, I try to add some kind of disclaimer – which is what I did in my last comment. Hopefully, you’ll get used to the way my mind works in a while – since it drives some people crazy at first.

Summary: You’re cool.

[Anonymous]

asha wrote:

Disclaimer: going into atheistic territory… might offend some (sorry!)

I don’t know about anyone else but I’m really past offense over this issue. Fear not!!

asha wrote:

I have said it before, that I think much of my problem with staying in the church long-term comes back to my lack of faith in general. I am an agnostic who tends to lean more towards atheism. I am not even sure anymore if I even “hope” there is a god, simply because I must admit that the idea of a divine dictator, even a benevolent one is distasteful to me. I guess most believers would see that as pride on my part, but I am just being honest. sigh. In light of this, you can see why a church that claims to be the only “true” church, and uses that claim to judge the rest of the world, is very unsettling and offensive to me. I tend to have a “live and let live” attitude towards others, and I am fed up with religion (not just LDS) thinking they have the right to tell people, even those who are not of their faith, how to live their lives. If everyone just accepted the fact that nobody really knows for sure what comes after this life, then maybe there would be less judging of others/ less oppression of others in the name of religion/ less guilt for things that are just natural/ less people blowing themselves up in the name of “god”/ less worldwide theocratic bullying in general.

Hey, you’re preaching to the choir here (at least for me personally). We are not that different in perspective, even in belief. But this is the point I’m trying to make, as long as you associate your membership in the church with belief in the doctrines etc. you will always have this problem (unless you change fundamental beliefs). I think it is instructive to separate the beliefs from the church. Theologically you may not have much in common with the church right now. But how about socially? morally? culturally? You have already mentioned some moral issues you agree with. I agree that if people generally stopped taking their various religions so literally the world would arguably be a better place (very blanket generalization, take with a bucket of salt). But I am confident that if it weren’t religion it would be something else. OTOH, losing our mythologies also seems to have a negative impact on society. “Brave New World” anyone?

As I’ve said to others, I would never try to persuade you to stay, but I would encourage you to continue to press forward past any anger, depression, or angst before coming to any firm conclusions.

BTW, loved the rant!!

[Anonymous]

swimordie wrote:

I don’t know if anyone else has used this, I’m not claiming to have made it up but in terms of God, I’m calling myself a post-agnostic: Not only is God unknowable, but the knowledge is completely irrelevant.

I think I might fall somewhat in the “post-agnostic” pot myself.

swimordie wrote:

What does the knowledge of God add to our experience as human beings?

Overall, swimordie, I like your entire comment and can see it and agree with much of it. But, this statement right here is the killer. This is the most subjective statement possibly in the history of mankind!! As a result, no amount of logic, or opinion will make a hill-of-beans difference.

swimordie wrote:

As for the hope of the after-life, I believe that this is where God would be most disappointed in us, His children. The obsession of religion for the after-life and to a degree, the apocalypse, is the single most irrelevant piece of information for the proper living of THIS life. The one and only chance we will ever have to be in mortality and we’re going to waste it obsessing about the next life? And by obsessing, I do mean valuing church callings above family, hobbies, occupation, leisure, etc. Serving others does not require church attendance. And church attendance and service for the sake of a higher degree of glory is not the lesson that God is trying to teach us in mortality.

I’m with you all the way on this part. This is why, for me, I have decided to focus my attentions on my family. If that means going to my daughter’s dance recital (which is on a Sunday this year) then I am willing to do that. If that makes me a faithless scoundrel, then so be it. As with just about everything else in life, a balance is necessary. I like to serve in callings, but not at the expense of my family and other more important things.

swimordie wrote:

I believe that this mortal life should be treated as much more precious than the after-life.

Wise words, I agree.

[Anonymous]

HiJolly wrote:

Some people have such difficult and otherwise hopeless lives that they *need* hope in something. A joyous, peaceful afterlife seems to work. Not only that, but both the afterlife and the ‘end-of-the-world’ serve a useful purpose, as do many other things in the gospel, to create a sense of immediacy. Some of us may not need it, but it does help a lot of people to decide to actually get off their duffs and do some good, to think that there may only be a short time to do it in. Coersion? Maybe. I think it does result in more action for good, though.

Yeah, this is the whole “practical” approach. I agree with you here HiJolly. For some people it does the job nicely. Sometimes it is coercive, sometimes it just supplies hope, and for some it is just a nuisance and completely unnecessary. Thank goodness there are atheists, agnostics, etc. in the world to provide balance!!

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

Hopefully, you’ll get used to the way my mind works in a while – since it drives some people crazy at first.

I like you Ray. I think we’re very different, but I really like to read your comments. You provide balance to my opinions and I have learned a lot from you.

Ray wrote:

It is SO hard for many people to truly give up the idea that they know what’s best for everyone else.

This is so true. And I am/was guilty of this for many years. I think I’m getting better.

[Anonymous]

swimordie wrote:

Old-Timer wrote:

What I about to say is not directed at you, swimordie. It’s just an observation from decades of observing and studying people and religion.

It is SO hard for many people to truly give up the idea that they know what’s best for everyone else.

As I stated in my intro, I’m new to this forum stuff, but I”ll take this as my first time-out. I’m sorry that I crossed a line because I have felt a spirit of calm and introspection at this forum. And I sincerely wanted to maintain that with my posts. Anything I posted was purely my opinion and, honestly, I don’t even know what’s best for me most of the time, let alone for everyone else. Obviously, I’m passionate about my opinion but it is truly stated with love, fwiw.

No, no, no. I think you misunderstand. You don’t need to take a time-out. I, for one, like your thoughts and abhor censorship. But I don’t think Ray was trying to censor you.

[Anonymous]

I agree. I think you’re misunderstanding Ray’s comment.

[Anonymous]

jmb275 wrote:

as long as you associate your membership in the church with belief in the doctrines etc. you will always have this problem

Yes, I think you are right… this is what I keep coming back too, and it is not at all constructive since it is clear to me that I will always have doctrinal “issues”.

jmb275 wrote:

Theologically you may not have much in common with the church right now. But how about socially? morally? culturally? You have already mentioned some moral issues you agree with.

This is true, and I am constantly reminding myself of this when I find myself at a low point. It isn’t always easy when the things you disagree with rear up their ugly head and refuse to let you ignore them (fast and testimony meeting is always particularly difficult for me!).

I have to say I am feeling much better this week. I am really enjoying teaching the yw, and so far have been able to teach them in a very meaningful and helpful way that never seems to conflict with any of my beliefs. I like to keep the lessons very general and Christ-focused, and stay away from church doctrine dealing with authority/temples etc. Today I taught a lesson on forgiveness, and it went so well. I loved that all the girls participated. All the girls shared their own experiences with the class, and I think they came away understanding the main point I was trying to get across: that being able to forgive has everything to do with you and not the person who has wronged you, and is certainly in no way contingent on first receiving an apology. It was such an open and honest discussion.

So, I came away from church feeling great (which is unusual on fast Sunday). Also, I am not planning on attending next Sunday since my parents (non-member) will be up visiting. I don’t feel the guilt I used to feel when I would decide to miss church, then when I would go I would resent the fact that I was missing an opportunity to visit with my parents. All of that is gone now. In addition, when I told my DH that I wanted to stay home next Sunday to visit with my folks, he said sure, he didn’t blame me, and he wouldn’t be at church either since he had to work. It just feels like there is so much less pressure on me now. It is such a relief.

Old-Timer wrote:

It is SO hard for many people to truly give up the idea that they know what’s best for everyone else.

Yes, Ray, I agree, and I am certainly one who is guilty of this as well. I guess my finger-pointing is based on the fact that history shows organized religion to be the worst of the worst where this is concerned… that so much evil and cruelty has been carried out under the guise of religion by people who truly felt that they knew what was best for everyone else. This is the part of the LDS church that scares me the most. The most glaring example is SSM. After all, it is one thing for the church to set certain standards for its own members who willingly signed up to follow them, but to work to impose those standards on the rest of society?? It is so troublesome to me. Issues like this make me want to sever all association with the church, and make me embarrassed to be a member.

[Anonymous]

asha-

sorry for hijacking this thread for my views. I relate totally to what you’re going through, mostly cause my sister is in almost the exact same place as you. Your spirit is so sweet and your desire to do good is inspiring. keep it up! I’m going to share some of your thoughts with my sister cause I think they will be a great comfort to her to know there are others out there like her and you.

[Author]

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