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Something that has always bugged in the church is the teachings if you commit murder or deny the Holy Ghost, you can’t be forgiven for them, even if you believe you’ve repented. That doesn’t make sense. So if you murder or deny the Holy Ghost you can’t be forgiven for them even if you are repentant. What is up with that? Your thoughts? “I don’t know that we teach that that. I don’t know that we emphasize that.” I simple don’t believe the LDS doctrine on this issue.
It doesn’t make sense.
“Eternal punishment” doesn’t make sense.
Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.D&C 19:7 And of some have compassion, making a difference: And
others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. Jude 1:22-23 Apparently, some need the fear of eternal hellfire to inhibit them from making awful choices.
What about the Anti Nephi Lehi’s? They were murderers, looks like they were forgiven. Nephi murdered Laban. I just don’t see murder as being unforgivable. I believe the only unforgivable sin is to deny the Holy Ghost – and I can accept that, since I believe truly denying the Holy Ghost means the equivalent of looking God in the eye and swinging your fist (having a “perfect” knowledge of God and denying God anyway). Thus, I believe there will be very, very few Sons of Perdition when all is said and done. That’s kind of the point of the Telestial Kingdom, as we commonly define it – a place for the totally unrepentant sinners, including murderers. Also, if we accept Nephi’s entire account of the attempts to get the brass plates, there is a case for calling his killing of Laban murder – but there is a very strong case for calling it justifiable homicide and not murder. A better example probably is Joshua (and other OT prophets), since the killing they ordered / approved / allowed was appalling in many cases. I personally don’t believe for a moment that those slaughters were commanded by God. On an individual basis, the Anti-Nephi-Lehis are a perfect example of murderers who were forgiven – and Saul of Tarsus is another. He might not have done any actual killing, but he certainly was the driving force behind it. What I find the most interesting is that those who repented from the most extreme end of the spectrum always swung to the other extreme in their obedience and dedication.
These are good points. The truth is I don’t completely disagree with the teaching that denying the Holy Ghost is an unpardonable sin. You probably have to be able to see Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ to be able to commit the sin. I also remember the Anti-Nephi Lehis of the Book of Mormon being forgiven of their murders. I guess either way the Lord would have to judge and I know I’ve read where the Lord has exceptions of various sorts and situations. To deny the Holy Ghost would have to be an unpardonable sin. It would be akin to the fall of Lucifer. He knew God and yet chose a different path. The only reason anyone would have a hard time accepting this is if they don’t understand what “denying the Holy Ghost” is…Basically, receiving the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost is receiving KNOWLEDGE of God, Christ and more importantly the atonement Christ wrought out for you, personally. As in YOUR part in the atonement. Which is why the sons of perdition are said to “crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.” As far as shedding “innocent blood”? I’m quite sure the only truly innocent blood is Christ’s because even “innocent” children must rely on His atonement for their salvation.
“The Prophet Joseph Smith asked, concerning those who become sons of perdition, “What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against Him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; and from that time he begins to be an enemy. This is the case with many apostates of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.” ( Teachings, p. 358.)
“To commit this unpardonable crime a man must receive the gospel, gain from the Holy Ghost by revelation the absolute knowledge of the divinity of Christ, and then deny ‘the new and everlasting covenant by which he was sanctified, calling it an unholy thing, and doing despite to the Spirit of grace.” ( Teachings, p. 128.)
I don’t recall any teachings about murderers being unforgivable?? And I have to say that the commandment “thou shalt not kill” does not bind God at all. He did not say “I shalt not kill.” What He meant was You, man, do not have the right to conceive within yourselves the desire to kill and then act upon it. God has every right to command His people to kill if it’s for the good of the ones losing their lives or others. In the case of Laban, if Nephi hadn’t killed him they wouldn’t have obtained the plates and “a whole nation would have dwindled in unbelief.” And in Old Testament accounts where men went in and wiped out whole cities? It is my opinion that the people who were killed were becoming more and more wicked and would have had a worse state in the after life if they had been permitted to stay alive. Also would have continued having kids and teaching them wickedness. You know God did give life and I have to trust that He knows what’s best for every one of us.
Lera wrote:This is the case with many apostates of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.” ( Teachings, p. 358.)
it was all sounding about right up until this last sentence.
:problem: hmm…I don’t think this should be taken as any apostasy to the church equates to perdition. You would have to have the heavens opened and see God and Christ, and then do more than leave the church, but actually deny God or the Holy Ghost to not want to have anything to do with God again. It isn’t just a going inactive, IMO.Heber13 wrote:Lera wrote:This is the case with many apostates of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.” ( Teachings, p. 358.)
it was all sounding about right up until this last sentence.
:problem: hmm…I don’t think this should be taken as any apostasy to the church equates to perdition. You would have to have the heavens opened and see God and Christ, and then do more than leave the church, but actually deny God or the Holy Ghost to not want to have anything to do with God again. It isn’t just a going inactive, IMO.
Taken in the context the first part of the paragraph set it up as nobody could mistake what he was referring to here. Well, unless of course they were only looking for a way to prove their own beliefs right:thumbdown: I agree with you. The God I worship is nice. He is always looking for ways to draw us IN not shut us OUT. And man, making a son of perdition for being inactive? Or what the church considers “apostate” That would be a mean mean God.Yeah. We will just have to wait and see what God meant blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. Ilovechrist77 wrote:Yeah. We will just have to wait and see what God meant blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.
Not me🙂 I intend to gain knowledge while I’m here on Earth. I’m too much of a seeker to be content with waiting til death. I’m pretty intense-Lol. I was told in my patriarchal blessing that I would have all my righteous desires fulfilled. And I’m reminding Heavenly Father about that all the time!I think even within murder, there are all kinds of different degrees and motivations. These should be borne in mind. I don’t know what blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is either. Nor the Ministering of Angels!
Heber13 wrote:Lera wrote:This is the case with many apostates of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.” ( Teachings, p. 358.)
it was all sounding about right up until this last sentence.
:problem: hmm…I don’t think this should be taken as any apostasy to the church equates to perdition. You would have to have the heavens opened and see God and Christ, and then do more than leave the church, but actually deny God or the Holy Ghost to not want to have anything to do with God again. It isn’t just a going inactive, IMO.I agree with you. I find comfort that there is even some dispute among past church leaders as to whether Judas was a full fledged SOP. Yet many in the church seem to view apostasy and being a Son of Perdition as one in the same. There seems to be plenty of cover for that viewpoint in the words of JS:
Quote:Before you joined this Church you stood on neutral ground. When the gospel was preached, good and evil were set before you. You could choose either or neither. There were two opposite masters inviting you to serve them. When you joined this Church you enlisted to serve God. When you did that you left the neutral ground, and you never can get back on to it. Should you forsake the Master you enlisted to serve, it will be by the instigation of the evil one, and you will follow his dictation and be his servant.
TPJS p.324
For me this seems to echo the words of GBH (a man I highly esteem) and others saying that the BOM is either a work of God or a deception of Satan – no middle ground.
I also know that there is plenty of room for a “softer side,” it just doesn’t seem to get much emphasis at church.
I suspect Judas was a SOP… but, there is some indirect evidence that Judas did what he did, because he was disappointed that Jesus wasn’t political enough, and he thought that this might stir up some action. Also, Judas was part of the plan… as Adam was, through his transgression, according to our theology. If he had not betrayed Jesus, then the Atonement wouldn’t have taken place. There is no such thing as sin!!!! There are consequences to our actions that we must live with. If murder is committed then you need to live with the repercussions of that act. If you want to make restitution you could help with he family or something but you can not bring that life back. So in a sense I guess you can never overcome something like murder. To deny the Holy Ghost is a bit if a false notion to me. How can yo deny something that is so abstract and void of any real understanding. If I said I deny leprechauns I would be considered sane but to deny the holy ghost is somehow offensive. My point is I neither deny or testify. I simply do not know what or if the holy ghost is.
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