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“We don’t have to agree on all things but the excuses , rationalizations and philosophical reflections on this particular topic turn my stomach. It is against everything I stand for and I can not excuse the unexcusable.”
Salo, this is a sincere question, asked solely to try to understand. There is no anger or rancor in it.
Does this mean you believe that anyone who tries to understand the ban and why it was allowed to happen, chalks it up primarily to racism, but accepts the Church’s inability to issue an actual apology (since it simply might have been an unavoidable part of restoring the Gospel in the early 1800’s in America) – or who doesn’t think the examples of Nephite racism toward Lamanites should be conflated with the Priesthood ban (and, therefore, should not be the basis of an apology) – or who comes to a conclusion that is not “the Church needs to apologize for racist statements in the Book of Mormon” (for example, because they believe such statements are accurate examples of the Nephite’s racism) – that those who don’t see things the way you currently see them are “unexcusable”?
I mean that sincerely, since I’m trying to understand your focus. Do you see my comments here as “excuses, rationalizations and philosophical reflections” that “turn (your) stomach” and are “unexcusable”?
Old-Timer wrote:Does this mean you believe that anyone who tries to understand the ban and why it was allowed to happen, chalks it up primarily to racism, but accepts the Church’s inability to issue an actual apology (since it simply might have been an unavoidable part of restoring the Gospel in the early 1800’s in America)
To me if this is the reason (primarily racism ) for the ban yes a formal apology should be given. Do what is right let the consequence follow.
Old-Timer wrote:– or who doesn’t think the examples of Nephite racism toward Lamanites should be conflated with the Priesthood ban (and, therefore, should not be the basis of an apology) – or who comes to a conclusion that is not “the Church needs to apologize for racist statements in the Book of Mormon” (for example, because they believe such statements are accurate examples of the Nephite’s racism)
If this is the case it needs to be taught clearly as as such , The church leaders and CES have obviously failed to teach this if no one in the church understands it that way .
Old-Timer wrote:that those who don’t see things the way you currently see them are “unexcusable”?
Absolutly not
Old-Timer wrote:Do you see my comments here as “excuses, rationalizations and philosophical reflections” that “turn (your) stomach” and are “unexcusable”?
Absolutly not
Ray , i’m switching to PM for a more complete answer. I feel I have tried to demonstrate best as I can my position on this topic , and feel I have tried to show some of the lasting effects not just of the ban but also racism in general within the church . I have tried to show what I consider the ugly side of the teachings on premortal existence . I have stated my case, rough as it may be , but I don’t think I can continue in this thread any further . Please wait for my PM.
Thank you Salo
That’s cool, Salo. I asked mostly because I have been about as vocal as anyone in my belief that the ban was primarily a product of racism. I just don’t think it was avoidable, and, as such, I don’t think it needs an “apology” – since I think the recent statements are very forceful and speak for themselves. At the most fundamental level, I just don’t like the concept of apologizing for other people. That’s a personal quirk, and I certainly don’t think others are “wrong” to apologize. I just think if you open that door (apologizing for others), it quickly becomes a never-ending, all-consuming cycle – and generally turns divisive, ironically.
Anyway, I will wait for the PM. I am fine with discussing it further there.
It seems to me that we are all pretty much agreeing with each other. All the posts acknowledge cultural racism as the root of the problem, and nobody is saying the old reasons given are correct (pre-mortal valiance, righteousness, etc.). The Church can say or not say whatever it wants, as an organization. The vast majority of individual members no longer believe those incorrect doctrines. 1978 was only 30 years ago. That means that a good half of the population alive today grew up being taught those old ideas as “the truth.” The current upper echelon of Church leadership were all in their midlife when the change finally happened. They may not be the genereation capable of making all the changes we talk about. Taking that step towards total reversal in 1978 might be as far as they can handle. It was a huge step farther than prior generations were ready to purge out of themselves. Maybe it will be us? Maybe it will be our children? I honestly think it takes about twice that long (60+ years) to really purge old ideas out of society. Bad ideas have to die with the people that remember them (that experienced them first hand).
So let’s ALL not be satisfied together with where our Church was in the past and be a part of the solution to move forward.
Well said, Valoel.
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