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Kipper wrote:
So many of my issues are addressed, I can’t begin to express all my appreciation for you time. So I need to read thoroughly thru your posts and reply thoughtfully.
Hi Kipper, my name is Tom; I’m a 46-year-old member of the Church and I can personally identify with a lot of the issues you raised. I agree with everything that everyone else has said, especially about getting professional help, but there is one issue that I can specifically speak to.
On the feeling of regret over what you’ve given up for the Church: coming from a Chinese-American background, my decision to join the Church at age 24 greatly complicated my life, and that is why I am still not married. In fact, being LDS complicates the lives of many single adults because it limits your compatibility with people you meet. Add to that differences in race or culture or intellect, living in the mission field, and lingering misperceptions about Mormons. So I know how it feels to think that your life was wasted trying to live for the Church.
The Church is stinkin’ awful at teaching the flip side of any truth. For example it teaches the virtue of education and vocational training, but never talks about the blessings that may come from not finishing your education (except when praising women for dropping out of college to become stay-at-home moms). I know a priesthood holder who would remind people that you can have too much education and end up being overqualified for jobs. The guy who introduced me to the Church made a Spirit-inspired decision to quit graduate school; he now works for CES, lives in relative poverty with his wife and several kids, and fancies himself a writer. And he is very happy!
Today I am happy with the way my life turned out. I do not regret joining the Church. But I did not come to this conclusion through LDS teachings. I had to turn to a non-LDS, holistic way of looking at life to come to this. The truth is, there are lots of people who are able to see life in this way, including many traditional Christians. We Latter-Day Saints have a much harder time understanding this because our Church chooses to keep playing the same A-side over and over again like a broken record. This is why I think it’s a good idea for you to get help from counselors or a group support because it will help get you out of the limitations of LDS-think.
Hi kipper. I wish I had more time. I do have my own issues but have done very well in overcoming others, I feel I have a bit to offer. I agree with Ray and convert. But a bunch if good feedback here. I’m not at ground zero but if indeed you have appeasement issues then I do did and still do. It is much better now but still away to go. There was a time because I was so heavily indoctrinated that I litterlly was scared to death to say no. It wasn’t in my vocabulary growing up. I was highly resistant to even practicing it in therapy I was so scared. I have come a long way now. I hope yours isn’t as bad. It is a dual problem. I except that it is me that needs to learn to say it and to stand up for myself is my responsibility. I had to learn that. As well that others don’t have the right to run my life(authority or not). I had to learn these things, because the opposite was taught for decades.
In therapy I learned a way to check if it is just my perception or if the thirst is indeed overstepping of bounds by the other party. It is to politely turn down the offer or request or demand when it is not good for you.
If the other person or party doesn’t listen and insist they have the right to overstep their bounds then you know it’s not just your perception if what you are afraid they might say.
In either case, it’s up to you to politely assert yourself(this is the difference between aggressive and assertive).
In the case of anger, I have to sides to the issue. It is indeed disruptive to hold it in. In as much as I person holds anger that portion can’t love. I have also witness people take advantage or passive people though. Taking advantage of that fact and redirecting blame on the person and then acting in aggression again at the passiveness(taking advantage if the situation).
The importance if being assertive. I too also lost my oppeetunity. But maybe not permenently, I will see. There is always hope. But it’s important to let go of unresenable expectations.
For the time being I study, practice my field of interest. Weather or not you get a career in what you enjoy doesn’t stop you from learning and doing what you enjoy. It is this spark insude that defines us and makes us who we are, our passions to progress in what our spark(interest) is.
There are also clubs in a local level that you can get involved in what ever interest you have to share your interest with others.
I hope you feel better and come to grips with the situation. Learn how to positively assert yourself and define your boundaries with others weather or not they approve.
Take care
Forgotten_Charity wrote:Hi kipper.
In either case, it’s up to you to politely assert yourself(this is the difference between aggressive and assertive)….
…In the case of anger, I have to sides to the issue. It is indeed disruptive to hold it in. In as much as I person holds anger that portion can’t love. I have also witness people take advantage or passive people though. Taking advantage of that fact and redirecting blame on the person and then acting in aggression again at the passiveness(taking advantage if the situation)…
…The importance if being assertive. I too also lost my oppeetunity. But maybe not permenently, I will see. There is always hope. But it’s important to let go of unresenable expectations….
…I hope you feel better and come to grips with the situation. Learn how to positively assert yourself and define your boundaries with others weather or not they approve…
…It is this spark insude that defines us and makes us who we are, our passions to progress in what our spark(interest) is.
There are also clubs in a local level that you can get involved in what ever interest you have to share your interest with others.
I hope you feel better and come to grips with the situation. Learn how to positively assert yourself and define your boundaries with others weather or not they approve.
Take care
Lots of this really hits home. Especially holding the holding in anger part and not being able to love. For some time I have been reacting destructively in my daily dealings with other things that bother me. So much for me to digest and this is only one of several pages. Thank you.
Hi Kipper, just add my nickel of thoughts. I served as EQ pres and my wife as Rel pres for five straight years in a small branch with very little depth. We were lucky to have one counselor in our presidencies and sometimes none and the same members had been there for thirty plus years and were burned out from doing all the callings so they wanted us younger folks, the minority of the branch, to do everything. I feel that some times more could be done to lighten the church load when there isn’t the human resources to fill the positions. In this branch everyone still wanted clerks, ym, yw leaders, compassionate service, ward mission, the whole nine yards. I feel in this scenarios more could be done to maybe combine ym/yw programs with other wards/branches to free up members, let branch pres counselors take more of the clerk load to free up members, or combine callings etc. I am not saying the work load has to follow these guidelines, I am just saying that there are ways to simply the workload. In the Branch there was a feeling of hopeless drudgery that there was just too much of the work to do and not enough help to do it. I was so relieved when my family moved to good sized ward and I could have regular work load responsibility. Right now I teach Elders quorum once a month and 16-17 year olds Sunday school weekly. I love it, mainly Sunday callings. I know not all this applies to your situation, just remember that callings were made for people and not people for callings. Priorities are jobs before church. You have plenty of depth in your ward. They will pray and find someone else and probably someone who needs the calling more than you. Just remember the gospel is true, but wards and branches run like any business and many ways. They look out for their production because of the goal oriented focus of the church, before they look at the what effect this load is having on those doing so much of the work. Much of this work is necessary, but a lot of the planning is busy work unless it focused helping to strengthen testimonies and not just work for the sake of work. It does not good for the active members to burn themselves out doing inactive work and church work just to turn around and go inactive themselves because they have’nt lived their own life. I looked at businesses, sports teams, jobs in general, etc. Business will give you incentives, props when you produce, but often when your issues get in the way of the production and they see no longer as an asset but a liablity, they will cut you off in a second with a replacement if they can do it. I am not saying the church is this way but its leaders are definitely influenced by the business mentality. Coaches will hound injured players who they feel would help their team, even if the coaches know more football will permanently injure these kids for life. The point is even in the church, you will be looked for what you can do for the church before what the gospel is doing help your life get better. There is no shame is saying needed to focus on my life right now and it in no way makes you a less valiant saint in God’s and in fact probably a better one. Politicians, athletes, actors all take leave of absences and sometimes for a good bit to sort their life out. Especially with your marriage needed to be strengthened most people will and should understand that.Just remember God wants you to be a good husband and a good member of society doing something you find fulfilling in order to be satisfied in your own life way more than burning your self out for others when your own life is left undone and you will be living the gospel more fully in your life. At the same time while take the time to do the things in life you have always done, get more info take help your marriage, books, anti-depressants, whatever you need and I think the scriptures can help too for your personal edification. Natural antidepressants have made quite a difference for me, but do whatever you need to go where you want. Its time to get yours in life, what you need. No apologies. DBMormon wrote:Church can be frustrating for the few who have moved beyond that paradigm. While a believer, I no longer believe what the majority do. This puts me at odds with much of what of what is said on Sunday. And yet I keep coming back. Why? Because somehow in the midst of all the nonsense, it is my community and where God placed me and wants me to be.
Kind of confusing, do you mean you don’t interpret or understand things the same way or don’t believe some of what is taught and written?
I went to a Boy Scout leadership meeting awhile back and several attendees including the presenter said God had placed us there at this particular time. I don’t believe in that thought and I wonder what the non member leaders in attendance felt their reason for being there was. Maybe a choice to volunteer? For me it wasn’t a choice. As we are taught, we are not a church of volunteers but of assignments.
I have such a problem with the expectation to put all my efforts and time into “the community”. I am also a believer in the restoration and gospel but it seems that most feel that church is all there is and the
expectationis to come along for the ride and be like… For some like my lovely wife, life passes by and they don’t even know the earth is spinning, that trees have fragrance, or when the moon is full. Or they wouldn’t if they didn’t read it somewhere. My state is not going to get better while I harbor this bitterness.
Quote:My state is not going to get better while I harbor this bitterness.
Amen.
The only thing over which we have control, thank God, is our own lives. We can influence others, but they thrive however they thrive.
Who am I do demand differently, when I want so badly to be allowed to thrive how I thrive?
Curtis wrote:Quote:My state is not going to get better while I harbor this bitterness.
Amen.
The only thing over which we have control, thank God, is our own lives. We can influence others, but they thrive however they thrive.
Who am I do demand differently, when I want so badly to be allowed to thrive how I thrive?
This, so vet much. I think culturally we acknowledge they different tribes thrive differently.
However in many tribes it is in outside in look. Rather then a inside out.
People often forget that within their own tribes, people thrive differently and assume because they are part if the tribe they thrive the same way, or should.
The system gets in the way. We know who are friends are and who we can trust based on the understanding and encouragement of that thriving. In as much as people encourage use to do things that help us thrive we extend friendship and trust, in as much as they encourage us to do things that subduing us into non thriving territory we understand they are not are friends and trust is withdrawn.
This goes for all our relationships and interactions with people, government, or orgs.
Help every person find a place and talent and serving their fellow man however it is that they thrive.
Forgotten_Charity wrote:Curtis wrote:
The only thing over which we have control, thank God, is our own lives. We can influence others, but they thrive however they thrive.Who am I do demand differently, when I want so badly to be allowed to thrive how I thrive?
This, so vet much. I think culturally we acknowledge they different tribes thrive differently.
However in many tribes it is in outside in look. Rather then a inside out.
People often forget that within their own tribes, people thrive differently and assume because they are part if the tribe they thrive the same way, or should.
The system gets in the way. We know who are friends are and who we can trust based on the understanding and encouragement of that thriving. In as much as people encourage use to do things that help us thrive we extend friendship and trust, in as much as they encourage us to do things that subduing us into non thriving territory we understand they are not are friends and trust is withdrawn.
This goes for all our relationships and interactions with people, government, or orgs.
Help every person find a place and talent and serving their fellow man however it is that they thrive.
Again so much useful info I could never get anywhere else. There has been plenty of encouragement to seek counseling and I will eventually but my schedule virtually prohibits it right now. This the best alternative. Maybe better since the dynamics of our religion are understood here except it is nice to be able to connect with a person.
Forgotten_Charity, I had to read a couple times to understand but that was well worth the effort.
:thumbup: For as long as I can remember I have never been in company that supported my thriving territory. I’ve always been suspicious of letting anyone close before I understand them because of that. It is a very isolated existence. I was that way with the church when I re-activated but I finally gave in even tho I was leery, for good reason. I shouldn’t expect the church to encourage me to do the things that would make me personally thrive but dang, I shouldn’t let it stop me either. For that I take some responsibility but what do you do? They are so well versed in compelling you to give of your time. One of the cliche’s going around our stake right now is “happiness is defined by God not by man”. I don’t know where that originated yet but really? Can I not do the things that make me happy and also serve the Lord. Why was I given my skills, talents and desires to achieve? I asked my lovely wife something like that and she replied “I want to put my efforts into achieving eternal life.”:yawn: I don’t know what to say that doesn’t sound belittling. There is so much in this wonderful world to experience and be part of. Why be confined to the culture hall?I have started to substitute the words “the church” for “God” whenever I hear something I am compelled to do and many times it fits.
Seems odd to try to define something as subjective as happiness as objective. Neither god or any man can trijet define happiness to a singularity, since it varies so widely from person to person and it’s quite unethical to assert what makes someone really happy.
Your wife has a right to her opinion. That’s what it is worth for her. However the mistake is justifying it that it is worth that for all or even many. I know quite a few people including myself that find that to be as extreme as possible.
But more importantly it is striving for something of a myth. Reading as much as possible, studying human nature, that goal is very very our in the sky. Can’t think of a more pie in the sky idea then that. It’s just way beyond our captivity as humans with limitations well below that.
A good example was a very TBM grandfather. Who has many journey’s from various ancestors in the earliest days of the church. We often read about people in a vacuum. As if the people in the bible, that’s all they did. We read part of it no where near how they spent a their time or everything they did good or bad.
Joseph smith loved to wrestle with kids, he also spent time watching steam boat races. In fact when the saints told him wrestling was unbecoming of a prophet he rebuked them.
Modern prophets have their free time, much spent as CEO in various positions for which they get paid.
That is to say that no one has the right to say that, it’s simply not true. It also renders life meaningless for many.
A person specifying we need to spend all or most of there time is exercising their opinion and that’s fine as long as they don’t assert it on others.
Our own prophets and apostles simply don’t do that past or present. Though they do spend much time.
To assert that we must do that would they unknowing cast many stones at the founders of the very religion they hold sacred?
To asset that on others is to do just that. They all had hobbies and interest for which they spent time.
You just don’t see it propped up, but it’s there to find I. Various church and private journals and letters.
Anyways, that’s just a few info you can talk about in a polite way to them.
I have seen my father sorbs so much time for the church he makes the brethren look non committed at and over 30 hours per week for years excluding his regular job. Never saw him growing up.
He now really regrets letting people assert his time in that manner and not with the family or growing his talents.
The point is in a volunteer org like our church, if you key people assert themselves for your time many will be more then happy to take it.
I already decided I won’t go the route of my father or continue down that path myself.
It’s to help with as much time as is practical and emotionally healthy and BALANCED.
Isn’t that our doctrine? BALANCE in ALL things?! Not all things but the church. That definitely isn’t doctrine.
Forgotten_Charity wrote:Seems odd to try to define something as subjective as happiness as objective.
Neither god or any man can trijet define happiness to a singularity, since it varies so widely from person to person and it’s quite unethical to assert what makes someone really happy.
It also renders life meaningless for many.
I agree, it’s really not possible to know exactly what makes others happy. In fact I have said too many time in the past few years that life seams meaningless if not striving to maximize your full potential and God given talents. My potential is different than everyne elses!
Forgotten_Charity wrote:Anyways, that’s just a few info you can talk about in a polite way to them.
The point is in a volunteer org like our church…
Local and general leaders say we are not a church of volunteers but of assignments. Over and over I hear this.Forgotten_Charity wrote:
Isn’t that our doctrine? BALANCE in ALL things?! Not all things but the church. That definitely isn’t doctrine.
I like that but I think it’s a stretch to say that is doctrine. Balance is encouraged but when it interferes with callings that changes. Two small examples, 1) I expressed concern that with my work hours and commute I would not be able to make all the activities as a YM leader. Reply was …when I was in your calling I used almost every vacation day for years so I could attend these activities. 2) When I expressed concern that I would not be able to spend traditional weekend activities with my son (we camp and fish a lot, or we used to) the reply was …me too but my son see’s me setting an example by honoring my calling and making sacrifices.journeygirl wrote:I had some thoughts from reading your post. If your two goals you mentioned are truly too late to achieve, then I think you need to take the time to mourn the loss of them. Allow yourself to feel the stages of grief as you pass through them. You can’t accept the loss of them if you don’t allow yourself the other emotions involved with it.
Also, is there another goal you have that is possible to reach? Maybe it isn’t as important to you as the other two were, but if you had something else you wanted to do that was possible still, I think you would feel better about your life if you were able to accomplish some other thing you want to do. And this time you could make certain to put it first, and not let anything stop you from achieving it.
Finally, as others have mentioned seeking professional help, I will once again advocate for couples therapy. Having a good relationship with your wife might help you get through dealing with your emotions and may make you feel better about your life in general.
I hope things get better for you. Life is pretty hard for all of us. Good luck.
I sure appreciate your input. Often what I feel I can’t articulate. I can’t overstate what a problem that is for me. Ya know, it’s been over two years since I dropped out of training and it still kills me. I have put in place another activity from the past to fill the void and it’s is pretty enjoyable and rewarding but I can’t get over it! It is still fresh in my mind and makes me feel like I failed. It is deeper than that though because my self destructive actions in my distant past prevented me from attaining or even pursuing many goals but after many years of growing up and aligning myself properly in the world and with God and heading in the right direction it was finally time. I can’t explain it all here, it wouldn’t be appropriate but I am raging inside for letting an institution direct me away from my path. I feel manipulated. This sounds bad doesn’t it. I hope I am not delusional.
Couples therapy might help our relationship but I think would do nothing for my bitterness. FWIW we have been to couples therapy many times before this all came about.
SilentDawning wrote:I could’ve written parts of your opening post….
I have a few suggestions,,,
1. Put your own conscience and inspiration first. See the church as a source of “input”, not the final authority. Remember, happiness is the object and design of our existence, and when the church experience does not support happiness, it’s time to re-evaluate its ability to influence our day to day behavior (particularly with reference to the “institutional service” issues you mention).
The position the church should hold in one’s life (in my view) depends on the cost-benefits of putting it in various slots of one’s personal priorities. If lessening church involvement means it will destroy your marriage, then you have to come up with a solution that acheives balance between your personal happiness and your marriage etcetera.
2. Recognize that the leaders are not always inspired. Your name could come up for a whole variety of reasons, not inspiration.
I want to say, I’ve had sabbaticals from hefty church service for years, and pursued things that made me happy in the interim (became a professional jazz musician, built guitars) and now, I get my jollies from serving in the community, not the church. I don’t regret all those things I did.
At 60, the opportunities you said are gone now may not be present, but the world is full of interesting things to do for the person who goes looking for them. I would suggest taking the “inspiration” of leaders with a grain of salt, doing what your heart says while considering the impact of lessening church involvemnt will have on your family, and find other things you can do now that you really enjoy, consistent with your own inspiration and passions.
When I was younger, I thought playing music and building guitars was the be-all end all. If I could learn to do that, I would leave this life happy….well, I figured both of those out and I had to find a new passion. My new passion — community service outside the church — has led to the discovery of new talents and entirely new careers I would consider pursuing.
Also, I no longer let the church’s “shoulds” control my behavior. Leaders DO conflate the gospel with the aims of the temporal church and one can’t let guilt or other emotions leaders can inspire in you give up your own sense of what is right and good for you personally…
That’s my advice. It has helped me survive and be happy in the church with a very active daughter.
I’m glad I went back to the top and read your post again. I need to let this sink in for awhile and the prior post from Alex too. No need for me to continue with my cycle of complaining. To be honest I just don’t feel like the church is everything is claims to be. That’s not an easy statement to make when I believe in the restoration and try to make myself right with God. I have received much good advice and understanding here. Waiting for the exact tip that will get me out of this mental funk is like thinking there is one tip that will make me a pro golfer. At least I have let off some steam and felt a relief if not resolution. I really want a sabbatical myself but I want to fill it with something rewarding.
My computer ate my longer response so I’ll just give you the heart of it: I believe that your worth to your Heavenly Father is unconditional. He knows you and loves you completely. I believe that God does want us to take care of each other and we all sometimes can say/do hurtful things – but even then God is always there viewing us with perfect understanding, charity, and forgiveness.
I had built my life around earning God’s favor – I now believe that I never lost it.
My new perspective is often at odds with the way people at church sometimes try to influence/motivate me to do things.
Roy wrote:
I had built my life around earning God’s favor – I now believe that I never lost it.My new perspective is often at odds with the way people at church sometimes try to influence/motivate me to do things.
Well I think with that being said there is no need for a longer post. That pretty much sums up what I am trying to say.
That and that being at odds is ok. What I mean is. Some people ask themselves a very different question about the same thing. Where one lesson might ask. Is there a god and how do I get into his good side?
I might ask, if there is a god what kind of god with what qualities would I praise or worship?
Maybe you can accept the calling, but just don’t magnify it. Ha ha ha. I mean, look for the things in the calling that are meaningful and spiritually uplifting, and do those. Discard the rest. For example, I’m a Young Men’s Secretary, and I’m supposed to take attendance, but I don’t. All I have to do is give a number to the ward clerk once a quarter, so that’s what I do. Basically all I do is send out an email once a week and sub for classes once in a blue moon. I go to a few meetings, but I skip some. Everybody seems cool with it. I don’t hear any complaints. I guess no news is good news. But my home teaching calling I take more seriously. I like home teaching because I really feel like I can connect with individuals and spread the good news of Jesus Christ. And about your dissatisfaction at not fulfilling some of your childhood dreams, um… I’m only 31, so I don’t have the perspective or life experience that an old man would. But I did become a teacher… for a year… and that went horribly, so now I work a blue collar job. At first it was really humbling sweeping floors and taking out trashes. But I got used to it, and I guess my job is pretty cool. I wrote a poem called “Almost” that might help you:
Almost
I almost climbed Mount Everest
But stopped when it got real cold.
I was gonna read the Encyclopedia
In one long stretch, feeling bold.
Aardvarks sure are funny-looking,
As are most things beginning with A,
Like abdomens, Alaska, alligators, ambitions…
Almost I arrived in Arizona. Instead I called it a day.
And what a day it was!
The flowers! The sunset!
The chicken, the mashed potatoes, the gravy!
The slice of blueberry pie!
And then the moon and then the stars
And then the dark dark night,
The rushing, the climbing, the speed-reading
world fading, fading from my sight.
And then the warmth of my breathtaking bed
And not a goal, not a wish, not a thought
to intrude upon my satisfied head.
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