Something Weird….Faith Crisis = Sin Relief?

[Anonymous]

Ok…I, like nearly everyone have had a struggle with what I was taught was a personal “sin”. Been a problem forever. We all have these things we deal with right?

Well, since my faith crisis I got a new lease on life…this is one of the weights that fell off my shoulders. I have come to believe that God wants me to be happy and he doesn’t want me to be plagued with guilt and remorse for having weakness. My goal is to keep trying to be a better person but I don’t beat myself up for some things and I even say “this is a small thing and I can live with it an di think God isn’t going to bur me as stubble because of it”.

So thats where i am …feel free to poke holes in it…..but the funny thing is…since I came to this way of thinking, I don’t have the same desire to do those things. I feel happier and I fel like it isn’t the end of the world should I screw up…now my tendency to screw up has gone way down. Weird right?

[Anonymous]

I can relate, John.

Probably the best part of my “faith crisis” is a lot of weight of shame was lifted.

My interpretation of sin is so different now than it was before…

To me, sin is incorrect thought & consequent e-motions & actions.

We are punished not for our sins, but by the consequences of them.

I still struggle with shame somewhat, though. It has been a companion since I could remember & I think it’s partly my family upbringing, as well as church.

Last night, I watched the movie, “Forever Strong” & it was inspiring, but I wondered if it was slightly unrealistic – not the entire picture, but a little black/white thinking. I guess that’s typical of movies, since extremes are more exciting than the mundane “gray” reality. Still, it made me wonder about the consequences of my thoughts… & reconsidering better outlooks & approaches.

It feels like a tight rope walk, trying to truly worship God/Love with all of my heart & soul… while not getting too attached to anything or anyone I love.

[Anonymous]

Actually it is not so weird. Psychologically the stress of “imperfection” can (when stress is truly felt) drive one into the arms of “sin” when that sin is a personal outlet for stress.

It is a vicious cycle, and why religion – when it works properly – helps by taking the guilt, stress, and shame out of the equation. The atonement is meant to make us feel “whole” even when we are human and “broken.”

Congratulations on your new found peace, I think that is what God has meant for you. :thumbup:

[Anonymous]

johnh wrote:

Well, since my faith crisis I got a new lease on life…this is one of the weights that fell off my shoulders. I have come to believe that God wants me to be happy and he doesn’t want me to be plagued with guilt and remorse for having weakness. My goal is to keep trying to be a better person but I don’t beat myself up for some things and I even say “this is a small thing and I can live with it an di think God isn’t going to bur me as stubble because of it”.

Johnh,

Yes! Great point, and I have experienced this as well. While I don’t know if it’s my faith crisis or a little more maturity, or both, I’ve come to believe that the quest for perfection is highly overrated. If I do my best (and sometimes my “best” depends on the situation) I’m more likely to feel like my sacrifice is acceptable. I also find myself somewhat less inclined to do something just to make others happy. I’ve found the burden of guilt and the need for constant self-evaluation to be decreased.

[Anonymous]

Good point RoadRunner, doing things to look good in the eyes of others is the wrong motivation.

Having said that, I do think sin exists. I do think I will be accountable for choices before a judgement bar if God.

I just accept I’m so fundamentally flawed, that the Atonement gives me hope that sins are not all God focuses on. Apostles have taught us, this life is about becoming a more complete and experienced person, becoming more like God, not just a net worth of good and bad deeds.

I accept drinking coffee is a sin. I just don’t really think it matters much. So, all things should be kept in proper perspective. So I can’t use my newer found peace to excuse myself of all sin. I just need to be workng on the things that help me become a better person. And the church teachings help me with that. I have often felt guilt and pressure to be perfect at church, but self-reflection has taught me that was mostly self-induced. The church doesn’t teach me to feel guilty, but to feel happiness through obedience.

I need to separate out what the church teaches with how I process church teachings. When I feel guilty or I feel hard on myself for not being perfect, that is a flag that my life is out of balance. And focusing on the love of Christ can help me recalibrate.

That is where I find peace, yet still be motivated to obey and avoid consequences of sin, including sin of pride or self-hatred.

[Anonymous]

I define “sin” in two ways: that which draws us away from an external God and/or that which rends our internal god.

The first is subjective, since people see God in so many different ways (if they see God at all), but the second, ironically, is about as objective as is possible, since it depends entirely on one’s own view and being true to that personal view. It consists of acting “according to the dictates of their own conscience, let them (act) where, how or what they may”.

Frankly, I prefer the second definition, since it gives everyone an (almost) equal chance with regard to sin – and, just as importantly, enlivens the concept of “transgression” (mistakes made in ignorance or from lack of ability) that is mistaken for sin so regularly.

So, yeah, a faith crisis can be a wonderful sin relief – but only if someone redefines sin in an empowering, enlightening, edifying, uplifting way and not just in order to justify all natural inclinations and laziness.

[Anonymous]

johnh wrote:

Ok…I, like nearly everyone have had a struggle with what I was taught was a personal “sin”. Been a problem forever. We all have these things we deal with right?

Well, since my faith crisis I got a new lease on life…this is one of the weights that fell off my shoulders. I have come to believe that God wants me to be happy and he doesn’t want me to be plagued with guilt and remorse for having weakness. My goal is to keep trying to be a better person but I don’t beat myself up for some things and I even say “this is a small thing and I can live with it an di think God isn’t going to bur me as stubble because of it”.

So thats where i am …feel free to poke holes in it…..but the funny thing is…since I came to this way of thinking, I don’t have the same desire to do those things. I feel happier and I fel like it isn’t the end of the world should I screw up…now my tendency to screw up has gone way down. Weird right?

I agree God doesn’t want us feeling the discouragement or depression with being overwhelmed by one’s weakness. In fact Ether 12:27 says God gave us the weakness anyway and he makes it a strength. So no fretting about it.

On the other hand you have to be willing to come unto Christ, to yield your heart unto him, to keep getting up and keep trying. You have to be willing and desirous to change or repent.

If you can do that – Then God’s Grace will slowly begin to purify you and sanctify you (Cleanse and Change)

[Anonymous]

I understand why many faithful would believe such a thing. And to some extent…there is truth to it in some cases, but not the way most devout mormons think. There are many many religious teachings that require one to feel guilt for “so called” sins.

And when the spirit tells you over and over again that some of these commandments of men, are not sins at all and that you must transcend religion to find the gods…one’s conditioning and life teaching of guilt and sin will come into play.

That is a fact…universal. Mormons don’t have a monopoly on it.

Unfortunately most religious folks, and especially including the faithful mormons can’t understand it, because their church is exempt from error or mistakes because they are the one true church…but if it’s a person from another faith, they have no problem asking those people to “sin” and stop listening to the commandments of their church leaders and church doctrines. (I feel guilt about some of the things I told catholic converts while on a mission)

Example: Think about the tremendous guilt that these women who leave FLDS must feel. Oh the anguish…the guilt…of “sinning.”

I’m sure I have many family members who think I took this journey to sin…specifically the WoW.

In reality, it has nothing to do with the WoW at all. It just happens that Mormons believe drinking a beer is a sin, and I don’t. The only guilt assocaited with the WoW is what is imposed by being disobedient to priesthood leaders. It has nothing to do with “sinning.” I just don’t think god cares…so I do it. And I don’t feel the guilt for it like I other LDS members would for not being obedient to the priesthood.

But I doubt many devout LDS members would agree with me.

[Anonymous]

cwald wrote:

But I doubt many devout LDS members would agree with me.

I love ya and agree with most of what you said except for a little including the WOW issue. Was the WOW revelation received in a vacuum? nope but that doesn’t mean it didn’t come from God. When one considers the damage done by alcohol (car accidents, divorce, unwed pregnancy, ect…) I certainly can have faith that God instituted the WOW.

Does everyone who drinks become an alcoholic? nah. Do they all have promiscous sex? nope But is is a form of russian roullette that I can easily see Heavenly Father asking us to avoid.

I agree it was only given at first as a “word of Wisdom:, yet I have faith it was extended as a commandment

no offense Cwald, just want to add balance to your statement. I respect your agency to decide what you believe and have no problem other then to put in a word for believing the WOW to be revelation

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

I define “sin” in two ways: that which draws us away from an external God and/or that which rends our internal god.

Ray that is just Mormon speak with a slight twist. Personally I reject the notion of sin as taught by Mormonism. I believe we there are consequences to our actions. So we need to be mindful of what we do and say as not to cause harm to others or ourselves. But the idea that somehow God is offended by certain acts of commission or omission is not logical to me.

I advise everyone take a holiday from guilt and look at life from a more rational perspective. Do good and avoid bad things. Do not feel guilt over things that do not warrant it. It is a form of manipulation to to be so governed by what other people tell you pleases or displeases God.

[Anonymous]

DBMormon wrote:

cwald wrote:

But I doubt many devout LDS members would agree with me.

I love ya and agree with most of what you said except for a little including the WOW issue. Was the WOW revelation received in a vacuum? nope but that doesn’t mean it didn’t come from God. When one considers the damage done by alcohol (car accidents, divorce, unwed pregnancy, ect…) I certainly can have faith that God instituted the WOW.

Does everyone who drinks become an alcoholic? nah. Do they all have promiscous sex? nope But is is a form of russian roullette that I can easily see Heavenly Father asking us to avoid.

I agree it was only given at first as a “word of Wisdom:, yet I have faith it was extended as a commandment

no offense Cwald, just want to add balance to your statement. I respect your agency to decide what you believe and have no problem other then to put in a word for believing the WOW to be revelation

No offense taken.

But since you want the conversation, I will go there. I just finished part two of your interview with Epig. He spoke quite a bit about the WoW commandment, and you both talked about the “vacuum.” And I understand why some might call it a game of Russian Roulette. Fine…but we could just as easily put guns and automobiles in the “WoW” as well…they are much more dangerous and risky than alcohol…and the rhetoric about the temperance movement in the 1820’s seems quite similar to what is happening with gun control now?

So. I don’t want to argue about the WoW. People who are alcoholics and are hurting family, regardless of their religious beliefs, GENERALLY do feel guilt about it… because of it’s consequences.

In the Mormon church, it’s generally only causes guilt to the extent that it causes people to feel they have sinned and are disobedient.

Consequence verses obedience. That is a huge difference. If the consequences of my actions hurt someone, than i should feel guilty about it regardless of whether it is against the church commandments or not. If my actions cause me to feel guilty even when they don’t hurt someone else…merely because of some man-made commandments that are designed to control and manipulate and determine “loyalty” to church leaders…I think that is a shame.

[Anonymous]

Cadence wrote:

Old-Timer wrote:

I define “sin” in two ways: that which draws us away from an external God and/or that which rends our internal god.

Ray that is just Mormon speak with a slight twist. Personally I reject the notion of sin as taught by Mormonism. I believe we there are consequences to our actions. So we need to be mindful of what we do and say as not to cause harm to others or ourselves. But the idea that somehow God is offended by certain acts of commission or omission is not logical to me.

I advise everyone take a holiday from guilt and look at life from a more rational perspective. Do good and avoid bad things. Do not feel guilt over things that do not warrant it. It is a form of manipulation to to be so governed by what other people tell you pleases or displeases God.

Thanks Spock. this is what I am trying to say.

[Anonymous]

Interestingly, I see both statements as saying the same thing in different words. After all, how many times have I said in this forum that I believe we each need to act “according to the dictates of (our) own conscience”?

I think we often make disagreements where there are none originally, simply because we would say something differently. Sometimes we use differnent words (or even stylistic constructs) trying to convey the same meanings – and, sometimes, those words and constructs throw some sort of wall between people and cause the message to get lost in the words and constructs. We let impressions of what is meant or what we assume will be said override the words themselves.

I know I do it, but, being conscious of that tendency, I am more aware of it than I would be otherwise. I still do it, however.

[Anonymous]

Well said Ray. That is where dialogue can be helpful to continue to share ideas openly until a greater understanding is met…even if different words are being used.

I like how Cadence worded things, because I think there is a peace that comes from avoiding unnecessary guilt.

I just think an underlying thought is for me to remember that sin does exist…but I must manage it and the guilt I feel around it, not make things black and white where I wish away all sin so I have no guilt, or that all guilt is caused by sin, or any other equation that is out of balance.

Drinking whiskey for someone like me that has been taught the Word of Wisdom and promised at baptism to obey it, can be considered a sin. OK, I accept that and will try to live it. But if I am in Carthage jail about to be killed or abused or starved…there are other things that matter more to me rather than abstaining from alcohol in that moment. I have heard stories from veterans like Pres Faust who refused to take coffee even in times of war, and their testimony of bullets flying by and missing them. I allow them to have their testimony and think what they want, but do I think the Lord changed bullet directions or that unseen spirits nudged the aim of the person pulling the trigger to protect the non-coffee drinker? Nope. And that is OK.

I think deeply about these things, maybe more so than others in the church. On a simplistic level, I believe obedience brings blessings, and sin causes distance from God. And others may be using words to look at it on that level with no degree of variation or exception. I can agree with them on a simplistic level. But I don’t know how to get others to get deeper into the nuance of what makes more sense to me on a different level. They just don’t understand me and think I’m justifying sin. Deep down…the Prophet may have drank alcohol the night before his death, and if he did he would be accountable to God for whatever level of sin that my be in God’s eyes, and yet I cannot imagine that one little thing overshadows all the good Joseph did in his life or all the other obedience the prophet exerted throughout his life. In other words, it wouldn’t keep him from seeing God, or being exalted. It is just what it is…a part of the whole story.

We all sin. We are all sinners. No one is perfect. Don’t judge me because my sins are different from yours (as Pres Uchtdorf taught us).

I can’t have this discussion with people at church…it just makes it seem like I’m trying to justify sin and they think I’m prideful. Because people at church won’t go to the depths of thinking and philosophical train of thought I may go to in order to process and making sense of things. So I shouldn’t really try to have the dialogue with some…it just leads to disagreements. But I have my opinions coming from deep thought and my relationship to God. And these thoughts have helped me turn a faith crisis into more peace and relief from some sins that used to fret my mind. My faith in the Atonement has helped me let go of some things. I have bigger problems to deal with in life.

A faith crisis can help filter and prioritize things in my life. And remember true teachings about the Atonement and sin. But I don’t find a lot of success in expressing what I’ve learned to others who have not experienced what I have experienced. So I have had to learn to let go of wanting them to understand me, and instead just do my thing, and let others do theirs.

[Anonymous]

Love the discussion. Discussions like this make me really appreciate this group and makes me wish even more that everyone lived in the portland area and we could get together for a real discussion.

I feel fairly tuned in with RoadRunner and Piper and seriously in line with Cadence and that crazy loon CWALD (just kidding cwald…in many ways you are like my broother from another mother)

I feel so strongly that Guilt and Shame are what Satan (or whatever evil force you believe in) calls the six-shooters he wears on his hips. These tools are so effective at bringing on sadness and despair to the humble and honest of heart…if you prove you won’t fall to those rounds then he pulls out the bazooka of pride….if you fall to pride then he picks you up and give you your own set of Shame and Guilt shooters and sends you back into the flock to do his work for him “I can’t believe you let your kids do that!” BAM “Well, anyone who does that doesn’t follow the bretheren!” BAM “You really can’t participate in the sacrament with that shirt young man” BAM “Sexual sin is next only to Murder!” BAM…killshot! “Homosexuals are just a bunch of perverts” BAM thats a two’fer!

Ok…sorry for the drama….but I believe it. If He can’t shame you then he gets you to shame others.

I literally believe, as I think it was roadrunner said, much of what we call “Sin” are really bad or questionable/risky choices. If I drink alcohol and die soon thereafter I don’t think God is going to say “Tut tut…too bad you didn’t repent before you kicked”. I don’t think he will even make me stand a step lower on the staircase to exaltation. I think he will give me the Doctor Phil like question “So…how did that work out for ya?” Not sure if this makes me no longer Christian…or makes me no longer eligible to be LDS…but I kind of think that the God that professes his love for me is not going to punish me forever because i screwed up a bit on this particular grain of sand on the beach of eternity…..because that is just messed up….I have a hunch (leaning a bit eastern here) that we will get a few other shots at life ….each one followed by a “So…how did that work out for ya?” session and maybe a millenia or two of contemplation time….End goal is still the same but it is actually a lot more about growth and learning and less about guilt and shame and God seems so much less narcisisstic..I don’t need my kids to worship me..I just want them to find growth and happiness and exceed me in every way…that seems like a godly principal to me.

So not sure what that makes me…I do know that when this thought came to me my desire to sin went way down. I almost find myself trying to fall into some behaviours that had caused me much guilt…out of some sick habit…like “dude…remember..you like to do that” and I just say…nah…not really. if i wanted to do some of those things…some of which I don’t even think are really “wrong” I would…but I don’t want to. To be honest this is the one and only time I sort of understand the statement in the BoM where they say “and they desired to sin no more”. To be honest it is kind of creepy….I feel different.

Part of it is psychology i know….basically they have shown that when you keep saying to yourself “I can’t have a cookie…cookies are bad for me…ok..just one then no more cookies!” the next thing you know you wake up in the morning with your head in the cookie jar with and empty milk jug lying next to you….then throw in the “I can’t believe I did that! Geez…I am so weak and stupid! If I only loved God I wouldn’t have done that…please forgive me!” and welccome to the hell I have know during times of my life.

So thats it…I sat in a room full of NOM’s yesterday…many were “Hell ya…glad I am out!” Many were drinking, some were drunk. I had a great time visiting and had not one inlination to drink. Yet…I felt no discomfort with the others choices and we were able to come together and discuss areas where we agreed and disagreed…each taking away new perspectives and no judgements…I really like this new way, at least so far.

Thoughts? have I slipped over the edge? Should I be locked up? Am i just a few days away from living in a commune wearing a hemp shirt and singing Kumbaya? I am feeling better than I have in so long….isn’t that a sign of insanity?

JohnH

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