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I sometimes feel that I have nothing to look forward to….edit: I’ve deleted my long TMI (in the sense that I could be identified by people who know me) post…thanks for responses and support…I just feel uncomfortable having my story on display anymore. I don’t know if deleting it will work but that’s what I’m trying to do. Challenges can be great, I hope we may be of some help. Welcome. EmptyChair, thank you for your introduction. Many of us here have either been through or are in the middle of similar challenges.
I’m sorry for yours. I believe that they do get better over time.
The bad news is, life is a series of challenges.
Some are harder than others.
Many of us find help in various ways. For example:
A. Support Groups.
B. Psychologists, Psychiatrists, MD’s.
C. Church or Service Organizations.
D. Talking to a good friend.
This is a good place to start.
Welcome.
Wow, I feel for you. I do share some of your doubts and I have felt like throwing in the towel before, I did once consider having my name removed. And, I have been angry with God – for quite a long time from my point of view (not his). I realized after some time (and after being here for awhile) that it wasn’t God I should have been angry with at all, it was the church I should have been angry with, and more specifically the teachings of the church that led me to the point I was at. The gospel and the church are separate and distinct, and some of what people in the church teach is not part of the gospel. I can’t answer all of your concerns and won’t try. First and foremost, please take this for what it’s worth: take it slow, don’t dump all at once, and focus on what you do believe.
I’m not sure about the whole baby thing and the afterlife and what happens with them at all. In actuality I think we know very little about the afterlife and most of what we think we know is nothing more than the opinion and supposition of men. This of course is also just my opinion, but there is little in the way of scripture to support what many in the church believe about the afterlife.
I also have issues with how suffering and answers to prayer (or lack thereof) are taught in the church. I don’t buy it. If we examine the scriptures we find that God’s direct interaction with men is quite rare. Why would that be different now? Doesn’t God want us to be happy? Why would he make his children suffer if all he really wants is for us to be happy? My own take on this is that God pretty much ignores us, although answers to prayer are possible (but rare). Also, God will never interfere with the free agency of any of us. This explains so much of that senseless suffering to which you refer. I don’t think God causes suffering or tests us and at the same time I don’t think he stops suffering caused by others. In my view, God is much more of an observer as opposed to an active participant.
I’m a man, and I know by virtue of that alone I can’t really feel what any woman does about the women’s issues you relate. I don’t agree with them, but that’s as far as I can go. I sincerely wish the temple wording was different.
FWIW here, my wife is the breadwinner in our home, not that either of us chose for it to be that way – it is the way it is for now though. Only you can decide what’s right as far as tithing goes for you. I, too, feel financially vulnerable at times (right now is one of those times) but do know that paying 10% on gross income is not the only way you can feel good about being a full tithe payer – beyond that it’s up to you and your husband. From your description I’m not sure you can have a conversation about that with your husband. There are countless people who have been hurt by the “windows of heaven” teaching when they figure out it doesn’t always work that way.
My faith crisis put strain on our marriage. Neither of us openly talked about divorce, and I don’t honestly know if my wife ever considered it – but I bet she did. I have never been able to talk to her about my questions and doubts because she becomes upset and argumentative. I have obviously made mistakes in going about it sometimes, but not always. Frankly she’s still quite shocked by the recent extension of a calling to me. Some of that “don’t dump all at once” means don’t dump on your loved ones all at once – if you can talk at all, do it a little bit at a time in consideration of his feelings. Otherwise, this is a safe place to talk.
I, too, am bothered about many of those other things you mention (polygamy, BY racism, etc.). But here’s the bottom line for me: when I am asked the temple recommend questions, I am not asked if I believe in those things. I full well realize when I am answering the questions that I do not necessarily believe in exactly the same way as the person asking does. Do I believe in Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost? Yes. Do I have a testimony of the atonement and the Savior and Redeemer? Yes. Do I have a testimony of the restoration and do I sustain the prophet and do I live the law of chastity, and so on and so forth? Yes. No one ever asks me if I believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God or if I sustain polygamy.
FWIW, I don’t want to be bishop, and I mean that. I honestly don’t think I have anything to worry about – I really don’t see it happening. I do understand your point about those who don’t appear to be fully toeing the line doing the grunt work. There are some here who do not fully toe the line who are exactly where they want to be or are where they think they should be.
I see a pretty equal number of men and women here – frankly sometimes I have to go back and look at a person’s introduction or other posts to remember if they’re a man or a woman. I don’t think a crisis of faith is a man’s game, but I’m not offended if you do.
I’m not sure your three outcome scenarios are the only ones. Please understand I mean this out of concern for you. Have you considered seeing a counselor? I realize you feel you might not be able to afford one, and I know NY is different than many other states in requiring insurance to pay for some counseling. But I also know that most places do have some form of free counseling available.
Please come back and interact with us. You reached out for a reason, let us help you even if all we can do is “listen.”
Hello empty chair. I understand some of the things. Actually, I know the victim is really the perpetrator speech or was asking for it or needed it really really well. Both growing up and in seeing in volunteers support groups for somatic violence, rape etc. enough to know that as a Org. The church is the only place I serve in where you wouldn’t get thrown out immediately for saying anything close to what has been said because it’s well known to be emotionally harmful in a big way. That said, I hope I never have to lose a child. I have already lost dear friends and family in war. For tithing I do what I can. There was a time when I risked everything to pay tithing and it cost me dearly 3 times before I had a few friends pull me aside to express there very real concern. Now it’s do what I am able. The faith with tithe and blessing never happened. I wound up in the hostile from passing out of malnutrition with no food for almost 2 weeks in my final attempt before my friends took me aside. Lesson learned the hard way. I became homeless for 4 months in one of the other attempts pay on faith.
About your marriage. Many of us are here in that boat. I do the best I can in my marriage because outside of church it’s really really great and strong. Not that it isn’t in church because I hide my feelings, but sometimes they come out. Wake silly in GC is almost a guarantee break down.
Finding support in friends or finding someone you can trust to confide in will help a lot.
It may or may not be a friend in church. There are more there then you think and many realize. Usually they don’t make waves. Therapy or couples therapy can help a lot if both are willing to work on it. New ideas and attitudes and opening up in a safe atmosphere can really help.
Life is full of change, since I was young it was forced upon me. Now I am embracing the change that I find myself and new healthy thinking. Can’t seem to get that at church usually. So other places become paramount where I can.
Your situation seems fresh still. Meditating can help. Suppression can help for short term, long term suppression can wreck destruction like no other though. Finding a place to be yourself and talk with people is paramount. I hope we can help. Take care.
EmptyChair, Welcome to StayLDS. I hope you can find what you are looking for.
Your introduction hit on some of my biggest hot-buttons with the Church, so I feel I get where you are coming from. Specifically, tithing and gender roles are two of my top issues. Polygamy is another.
People here have generally found a way to own their own beliefs and spirituality and move the Church to a position on the sidelines. There’s comfort in doing so. The Church has a lot of problems, but I found that once I let go of the Church as the arbiter of my spirituality, and simply let it be a support for my spirituality, that I was a lot better off. For example, I don’t believe any more that the “special sayings and actions” have anything to do with entering the presence of God. And now that I see it differently, I realize that I could have seen it differently even when I was a fully believing member of the Church. But the bottom line is that I don’t need any of those things to live a spiritual life. To the extent that the Church provides a framework for me that I can use, great. Where it fails, I rely on my own brand of spirituality.
I do want to address a few specifics from your introduction. You laid out 3 possible ways forward. I don’t think those are the only ways ahead. The reality is that there will be a mixture. The big thing you face is whether to save your marriage. I don’t know you or your husband, so these are generic comments, but I do believe you have to look at it outside the context of the Church. Without thinking of tithing or temple or gender roles or sacrament meeting or callings or the Book of Abraham… without thinking about any of those things… ask yourself if you want to stay married. If you don’t, then don’t blame the Church. If you do, then don’t let the Church stop you.
I would recommend spending a little time deciding what you DO believe… not about Church… not even necessarily about God… but about life, spirituality, goodness. Then branch out from there, grab onto what you do believe, and don’t let go. Then, I think the next step you have to consider is when it is right to talk to your husband. Family secrets are destructive. But when you do talk to him, its crucial that it be based on the love and marriage and whatever faith you do have in common, then go from there. Talking to him about how much the Church and his faith suck will make it worse. Talking to him to let him know you aren’t a believer in some/most/all of it, and then moving on to how to make it work together is the key.
I also suggest counselling. You have a lot to work through. People here can share your burdens and can offer advice, but we are a poor substitute for professional and individualized help.
Finally, the title you chose for your introduction was “Sometimes I feel like I have nothing to look forward to”. I understand. There are many here who have reached that same crossroads. I can tell you that in my case, I became very depressed. I sought out and found professional help. I have been happier than I ever thought I ever would be again. I’m even at peace with the Church. It still can be frustrating, and there are days when I can’t imagine staying with it, but the vast majority of my time is spent seeking out my own way in life and not worrying about the Church. My wife is still a believer and we love and respect each other and are grateful for each other. I grasp onto the things about the Church that I like and I ignore the stuff I don’t like. It has made all the difference.
EmptyChair wrote:About five years ago I got to the point where I stopped loving Heavenly Father and began to resent and hate him. He gave me kill-your-unborn-baby disease and all the doctors were left scratching their heads because they couldn’t explain why it was happening over and over again so far along in pregnancy. I was left with these little bodies and absolutely no doctrinal assurance that they were “mine.”
Mormons do not believe that abortion is murder. It is only “like unto” murder. So there goes the back door approach to believing I’ll have those babies back one day.
Richard G. Scott tells about his little boy who died. Then he valiantly states that he now has every reason to live worthily so he can be reunited with his son. How nice for you to have that assurance. You must feel so loved by that assurance.
None for me though. There’s NO doctrine about when the spirit and the body unite to become a soul (and no….I’m not finding comfort in Bruce McConkie’s speculations either) so I’m stuck just “hoping and trusting” for the rest of my life. Even though hope and trust in this life left me with nothing but despair and then later the hideous pressure from other meddling men and women to label this all as “God’s will” and nod my head at it.
So I guess my spiral began with my testimony of senseless suffering. Over and over again I hear members and leaders do the chalkboard scratch by saying that they “know that when we don’t get what we pray for it’s because it’s not what is best for us.” Or better yet, that ALL our trials are “TAILORED” to us for our individual spiritual needs.
I just do NOT believe that. Ever seen the incredibly depressing documentary about the Dancing Boys of Afghanistan? How about the tragic story of Baby P who was tortured and killed?
There is so much horrific stuff going on and I actually get angry when I envision primary/general authority voice from the pulpit telling victims that they personally stood in need of these kinds of trials. I do not for one second think that the truly awful stuff somehow cultivates spiritual growth. Some of it is just plain Hell on Earth.
So. That was the starting point for me. And boy does the hole go deeper.
I’m so glad that you found us!
I too began my faith transition with questions of “senseless suffering” or more specifically in my case – What is my relationship to God and under what conditions will he intervene in my life?
I had thought that my faithful priesthood service would prevent major sorrow – but then our third child died a few days before birth. It would have been so easy for God to send a clue to anyone (she was full term) and she could have been delivered alive and possibly saved.
In my grief, I read all I could about the doctrine of child death and stumbled across the same stuff as you have. The church that always seemed so sure about all the answers to the afterlife and what it took to get there, had nothing to offer on the topic of stillbirths. We didn’t even know for sure if she “counted” as a person for the purposes of eternal family composition. My eternal family had fallen into a doctrinal gray area.
I also read about the popular church theories about why suffering happens to “good people.” One of the dominant LDS theories is typified by the landmark talk on the current bush (i.e. that God gives us specific challenges to mold us into what he wants us to become). Although this didn’t give me any comfort, I know people that have taken this theory to give the suffering and tragedy in their lives a sense of purpose. Unfortunately I have also seen such theories be used to dismiss or downplay the suffering of others.
😥 Once the “righteousness/church loyalty = blessings” assumption crumbled, the other dominoes began slowly to topple. I stopped paying tithing out of grief and disillusionment of the promised blessings and my bishop confiscated my TR. I sometimes wonder if I would have more closely aligned with the traditional LDS path if such heavy handed tactics hadn’t been used in such a critical moment.
That was 4 years ago. I have come to a place where I am comfortable with myself and with my God (even without assurances) – but the church and I remain in some sort of uneasy truce. I’m not thrilled with them and they’re not quite sure what to do with me.
My purpose in sharing this is to let you know that our paths have been similar. You are not alone. You are not crazy. Your reactions to your circumstances are perfectly normal for a reasonable person.
The details of my story (and some resources that I’ve collected and tagged along the way) can be found here:
I just wanted to add they this is rather normal too. Probably the best known example is Mother Teresa. Letters, journals seems to show that her doubt and fairy that there was even a god started nearly as soon as she served in Africa with the suffering. Days, weeks, months, years and even decades passed as she prayed and prayed and prayed for help but got no answer, no help and no comfort. For 40 years she prayed to help them and died without receiving any answer or hope, comfort. You are not alone, one of the problems is that of a highly faithful people stores at church that are so unlike anyone ever actually recorded. Much more like myths then real people experiencing real problems.
This often leads people to feel like they have failed and come short of the impossibly unrealistic examples of faith taught.
While I can’t say for sure if there is ever any intervention, I can say there is no formula of logistics to it. Nothing more then the usually random occurrence of chance. Leaving people to work things out together and support and uplift each other through hard times and not so hard times. Which is why I am grateful for those that don’t wait for a helping hand on high but take responsibility with the help begins with me position. Rather then passing the situation to someone else. Of not me then who? I relate strongly to the character Frodo. Some wounds go to deep, that time or prayer can’t heal.
Yet hope dies remain, as we focus in the things within our control that bring us and those we care about happiness.
Happiness to others is the only real thing that brings me any real joy anymore. But I get to look forward to it everyday.
It might take time but shifting to a new focus of hope that brings you happiness can help a lot.
Hi, EmptyChair – I really feel for you. I hope all the advice above helps. There are such good minds and kind hearts here. EmptyChair wrote:And to end on a petty note and likely alienate myself from the people I’m reaching out to, I just want to say that having a faith crisis seems to be a man’s game. If you want to hold back on tithing….you usually can because you hold the financial reins (if you followed the Proclamation’s advice).
Likewise, it seems like there is an imbalance between men and women when it comes to climbing the calling ladder. I really do believe that most Mormon men want to become a bishop one day, and an openly doubting wife ruins those aspirations. I think that Mormonism values men for their leadership callings and values women for being married to those in leadership. (cynical I know)
There are an increasing number of couples in the church with one spouse who wants to pay and one doesn’t. Maybe that’s the way it’s always been, but now everyone goes online and talks about it. I read lots of posts at NOM from men who earn the single paycheck for the family who desperately want to change how they pay tithing, but have had to reach a compromise with their wives. If you rummage around here and there I think you’d find at least comfort in not being alone.
Do you sense that your husband aspires to become a bishop? Does he seem stressed by how you “come off” to others?
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