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Brian Johnston wrote:
😯 😯 😯 😯 😯 😯 😯 /palmface x100
Wow Cwald!
:wtf: Quote:It doesn’t matter what the prophet tells you to do, even if it’s wrong – you do it anyway, god will count it unto you as righteousness.
Could there have been a better setup for this reply, quoted from an official church publication?
“We have heard men who hold the priesthood remark, that they would do anything they were told to do by those who presided over them, if they knew it was wrong; but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself, should not claim a rank among the intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly.
When the Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience, as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong themselves, and wish to pave the way to accomplish that wrong; or else because they have done wrong, and wish to use the cloak of their authority to cover it with, lest it should be discovered by their superiors, who would require an atonement at their hands.”
-Millennial Star, No. 38, Vol XIV, November 13, 1852. “Priesthood”
I have a scanned copy of the actual newsprint page, if anyone questions this is for real.
So much false doctrine and anti-Gospel. You are a hero Cwald, really. That stuff can not be allowed to go unchallenged. I let a lot of things slide. I can be tolerant of a lot of more orthodox expressions and ideas, but I would have done the same. Voices of reason and pure religion have to take a stand against that stuff.
I seriously need my Facebook “like” button right now.:thumbup: http://beta-newsroom.lds.org/article/approaching-mormon-doctrine cwald- I hope things work out well. I don’t know if this will help but I have attached a link to the Church’s website, on approaching Mormon doctrine. Here are a few of the highlights to help show as members we are free to have our own opinions and still have agency.
“Individual members are encouraged to independently strive to receive their own spiritual confirmation of the truthfulness of Church doctrine. Moreover, the Church exhorts all people to approach the gospel not only intellectually but with the intellect and the spirit, a process in which reason and faith work together.”
“Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted.”
I know that now that Costa and Oaks reiterated the ideas in Benson’s talk the last statement may not hold as much water in the eyes of your SP, BP and HC. But at least the document makes it clear that these guys are not always speaking for the lord and sometimes (most the time) are talking for themselves.
The Church’s Official stance is “Don’t quote me on this, I could be wrong”
I hope things go well for you. I have appreciated your views and comments. By choosing to stay you have helped me.
What Brian said (including the emoticons), word-for-word. That story just hurts – deeply. The Church really is radically different, depending on location and local leadership.
As Elder Holland said in a recent Stake Conference I attended:
Quote:“Sometimes I just want to put my knee on their throat and smack them – but that probably isn’t very apostolic.”
RAY! Reference for that quote please. I need to add it to my collection. Love it! It’s so WWF meets Q15!
There isn’t any recorded account, Brian, of which I am aware – and, as I think more, it might have been “throttle them” instead of “smack them”, but the spirit of the quote is the same. It was the highlight of an exceptional talk, btw – a truly exceptional talk. I’m sure the exact wording will get even fuzzier over time as dementia kicks in more and more, but I hope I never forget the gist of it. EPIC doesn’t even begin to describe it! It still brings a smile to my face whenever I picture him saying it.
cwald, Finally checking in and all I can say is WOW!!!!! I heard some false doctrine yesterday too but it doesn’t even compare, just someone’s misunderstanding of the atonement:(
It’s hard to know when to speak up and when to let something slide but if you do decide to write that letter you have some great references.
You’ve corrected things with your family and that is the most important.
CG
I think I’ve suggested this before, but is there any chance of you attending a different ward, cwald? One that you might find better company in? SamBee wrote:I think I’ve suggested this before, but is there any chance of you attending a different ward, cwald? One that you might find better company in?
No, that is not really an option. The closest ward to where we live is 70 miles away. Plus, that ward is in the same Stake so…
I met with my HC and the BP this morning. The HC gave his talk about the 14F, and said he took a bit different approach to it than the speaker in our branch. They told me they did not take the message the same way I did, but after mulling it over they understand why I might be upset with it and Bensons talk, and that the HC speaker did a poor job explaining his message. The BP wife was also at this meeting and pretty well agreed with me that the HC said some outrageous things and some things that the church does not believe in, and that the comments about the gay rights was way overboard.
The BP and HC talked AT ME for about 15 minutes about the main point of the talk to “follow the prophet” and how important it is. They reaffirmed that the “prophet will never lead us astray, so you don’t need to worry about him telling you to do something that is not right…” I argue about the principle, and the teaching and saying that kind of rhetoric regardless of how they feel about Monson. It didn’t’ take.
They both asked me not to “complain” to the SP, as that would just cause me additional problems, especially because of my last encounter in December. (I think they have my best interest in mind to be honest) At the end of the meeting, I told them I would not write a letter or talk to the SP, and that it is not my place to tell the SP or the HC what message they should or shouldn’t be teaching at church, and that the church leaders and it’s members can teach and believe anything they want—and I have the free agency to
not believe it and reject it– and I do. I then asked the HC to teach my classes on Sunday as I probably will not be attending this week for obvious reasons. Okay, seventy miles… bit of a drive!!! I’ve said so before, but I think I’m lucky with the ward here. I’ve visited others, and have sensed the problems there. It’s not perfect, but I like a lot of the people. If I was in your position, I’d probably be out!
I suspect there has to be a decent solution to this for you, other than biting your tongue and leaving the place…
In my opinion, cwald, you have lots of ground to stand on that there is nothing “apostate” or wrong with any of your beliefs or disbeliefs. The group has cited enough wonderful quotes and statements that make me think you are right in this situation, as you’ve described it. What I would add, is that how you conduct yourself and how you communicate to the leaders is more important in this situation than the details. I respect leaders who are trying to support and sustain church leaders and take the words of conference talks and try to apply it in wards and stakes, likening the scriptures to our daily lives is what it is all about, IMO. But they are not perfect people, and there may be kernals of truth they have about the importance of obedience, but they may also take those too far to start sounding like obedience is greater than free agency or personal revelation, and they certainly cross the line in preaching some groups of our society have no rights. I know of no doctrine that would support those emotionally charged statements.
That may be where they need someone like you to calmly, and lovingly, point out that others don’t benefit from that message, and that other church doctrines (quoted in posts above) do not support extreme statements on obedience. In their Stage 3 mind, they may not even have considered your view point. It may be very helpful for them to realize that many members of their stake will not benefit from the same message they feel passionate about.
But you can’t get them to open their minds to such possibilities if they get defensive and feel your approach is unChrist-like, and they discredit you because they think you are trying to rock the boat for fun or because you’re bored. To build bridges, you may need to speak their language, and earn their trust and respect, by giving them truth they can learn from, and be humble yourself to realize they may have some truth you can learn from.
Quote:D&C 50:22Wherefore, he that preacheth and he that receiveth, understand one another, and both are edified and rejoice together.
On the other hand, it is not your sole responsibility to get them to be open minded, they need to have a desire to understand you, if you are to both rejoice together. All you can do is try, in a loving way, try to get them to see why your point is valid. Then, it is up to them to decide how to handle their stewardship with leading the branch and stake. And then, you let it go. In my opinion, there is value in trying to reach an undertsanding, and not just in proving you are right.Those are my thoughts. I’m interested to see how things play out. Keep us posted.
This quote came up in another discussion this morning and I thought I’d post it here. It’s not “official” doctrine whatever that is… but I love it and live by it: Quote:What a pity it would be if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of this?
I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by Him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually. Brother Joseph W. Young remarked this morning that he wished the people to receive the word of the Lord through his servants, be dictated by them, and have no will of their own. I would express it in this wise: God has placed within us a will, and we should be satisfied to have it controlled by the will of the Almighty. Let the human will be indomitable for right….
Let all persons be fervent in prayer, until they know the things of God
for themselvesand become certain that they are walking in the path that leads to everlasting life; then will envy, the child of ignorance, vanish, and there will be no disposition in any man to place himself above another; for such a feeling meets no countenance in the order of heaven. Jesus Christ never wanted to be different from his father: they were and are one. If a people are led by the revelations of Jesus Christ, and they are cognizant of the fact through their faithfulness, there is no fear but they will be one in Christ Jesus, and see eye to eye. —Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 9, p. 150, 12 January 1862. Too lazy today to see if this is quoted in this thread already 😆 , but one of my favorites is:Quote:“I never thought it was right to call up a man and try him because he erred in doctrine, it looks too much like methodism and not like Latter day Saintism. Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be kicked out of their church. I want the liberty of believing as I please, it feels so good not to be tramelled. It dont prove that a man is not a good man, because he errs in doctrine.” – (Joseph Smith, Works of Joseph Smith 183-184)
It is scary to me when people follow blindly. My husband has been reading the Koran lately and it is pretty awfull. I don’t know if I ever shared the story about when my dad lived in Berlin and was in the junior olympics for shot put and hammer throwing. He was asked to be a bodyguard for Hitler because of his great physical strength and skills. This was thought to be a great honor with lots of perks at the time and at first my dad was really excited. He had just joined the lds church after investigating it for 3 years. He was given a paper by the Nazi’s to sign that Hitler would be his only God from now on. He realized how evil Hilter was then and said :Jesus Christ is my only God and I will not sign this. Thank goodness he didn’t as our family would have never been able to come to America otherwise. I still remember a lesson in RS about following the prophet and everyone just agreed with following anything he said. I raised my hand and said “That is how many people feel about Jeff Warrens who is in jail now for having sex with young girls and making them his bride. Personal revelation is so important.
Interesting update. The tattoo lady from church visited me at work today and thanked me for having the guts to walk out, and that I talked to the kids (her boy is in my class) in SS after wards and “refuted” the remarks from the HC and explained it all. She said she wanted to get up and leave, but was too scared.
She then told me that she goes home from church EVERY week mad as hell, but the spirit keeps telling her that she needs to keep going to church and “stay LDS.” I told her that was an interesting way to put it, and I DO ABSOLUTELY know what you’re talking about, as I have said it almost exactly the same way, word for word.
cwald, We’re pretty lucky to live in an area now where we don’t hear much craziness from the pulpit, in fact we’re in one of the best wards we’ve lived in. I’ve been in about a dozen different wards in my adult life – all over the US – and our present ward is probably ranks 1st or 2nd for me.
We lived in one ward though where just attending required every ounce of testimony I had. I’ve not seen anything like it before or since. And everyone I run into who lived there hated that ward. I used to complain to my mom on the phone about how bad the place was and she’d tell me to suck it up (but much more sweetly – lol). She thought it was just me. Then a family moved into her stake and she ended up visiting with the sister to orient her for her new calling (my mom was stake RS counselor at the time). The new sister was chatting about all the places her family had been and she mentioned she’d live in the same place my husband and I were stationed.
Mom said “Really? My daughter lves there right now.” The sister asked “Has she lost her testimony yet? That’s the worst ward I’ve ever seen and it’s enough to drive the most faithful saints out of the church.”
Mom couldn’t call me fast enough after the orientation to apologize for doubting me. Haha.
Sounds like you are in a similar situation….
I sure wish you could move.
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