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I didn’t want to post this out on the regular board, but I’m kind of heartbroken. My son called tonight to say he doesn’t feel he can go on a mission because he is not a believer and Mormonism just doesn’t work for him. He’s only 18, been going to BYU this year, and it’s been incredibly hard for him culturally to be around people who say things about gays that he doesn’t like (he’s a democrat) and literalist views on things that he doesn’t agree with. He’s (IMO) throwing out the baby with the bathwater. We aren’t really surprised to hear this, but we are dismayed. I’m mostly concerned because now that he’s “out” as a non-believer, the hardest part of letting go is over, and now he will have no reason to go slow. Sorry to hear this, Hawk. Thanks for sharing. The struggles are the hardest when they’re from our own homes. I know you will be able to handle it in a positive way, and not compound the situation the way so many LDS parents do. Our 11-year-old daughter talked with us about a month or so ago about how to tell if she is lesbian or not. Life is interesting.
Orson, your faith in me is refreshing and possibly misplaced. I feel devastated, which is something I haven’t been able to say for years. Ray, that helps, strangely enough. Hang in there.
I feel much better at dispensing advice than going through this myself.
That’s tough Angela. 😥 It’s something I think often about with my kids too. Is it better to start adult life with belief and roll back to adjust as necessary, or start off without belief and ratchet up as needed? The whole topic of religion is still a sore, awkward subject in my household with the family divided at different points on the spectrum. Way easier to give other people advice… bleh.
On the pragmatic side, it kills me to think of the consequences of attending a university like BYU where young people have to face intense social stigma for even just exploring doubts or not going on a mission for the church. And the very real consequence of having to transfer schools where they lose credits ($$$) and time invested in their education. We’re not even talking about dangerous behaviors or being expelled for academic violations — just maybe not really wanting to pound the pavement for 2 precious years proselyting a religion you might not feel super zealous about.
Just to expound on my sad feelings (your moment of schadenfreude if you will), I’m full of conflicting emotions, none of them positive unfortunately: – a lot of his issues are political; he is very democrat
– other issues of his relate to how literal people are in how they present “facts” that he doesn’t believe are facts (although the manuals don’t really do this, some of the Q12 are literalists, others are more open)
– he’s only 18, and he has relatively little life experience. Yes, he’s lived abroad and been exposed to other ideas, but he doesn’t have experience to go with his ideas and theories.
– I was at the same place at his exact same age, hating BYU, an atheist, going there because it was what my parents would pay for (in his case, it was the only place he got in). Mine didn’t come to a head because I didn’t tell my parents as no mission was imminent, and I had my BOM experience in Feb of my freshman year (right now in my son’s life cycle). In his case, he’s befriended Curtis Penfold and isolated himself from BYU friends in general.
– his dad & I think he has been a closet unbeliever for quite a long time possibly, much longer than he said, but we are sifting through the scant evidence and remembered conversations.
– if he doesn’t like how black & white and literal Mormons are, he will see (eventually) that exMormons are equally so.
– I think a lot of this is tied up in his perceived loss of status in moving back to the US, and his culture shock on repatriating. He did the same thing before when we moved there, holing up in his room, staying in touch with his AZ friends. Now he’s doing that with his SAS friends, none of whom are religious or (obviously) Mormon, so he identifies more with them to cling to the past. Because we moved a lot when I was growing up, I see some of the same behaviors I did. It’s a defense mechanism to keep a new culture at arm’s length and be critical of it because you see yourself as not fitting in, and you aren’t sure you want to fit in. Story of my life.
– He hasn’t faced enough adversity. We were living very well in Singapore in a $7M apartment, definitely 1%ers, he has never had to think about money, has a Platinum card since he was 15 (that we pay), spent $200K in travel to 18 countries while we were there. You don’t develop a belief in God until the shit hits the fan, and it really hasn’t for him.
– I took severance in leaving. I’ve got loss of status, too; we are now watching our money, and starting up a business, living off our savings. For me, this is no big deal. I have always worked, and while I have moments when it bothers me, in general, I’m pretty grounded about that sort of thing. But now that he’s not planning to go on a mission and wants to leave BYU (and maybe that’s best), we don’t have enough money set aside for that. The extra costs are: his car insurance (on a mission, you don’t pay this), his living expenses, his tuition (at least double), and we were planning to have his car back while he was on his mission for his brother to use for two years. I’m also really worried about him seeing us as victimizing him for being a non-believer because that’s what every non-believer does, trash on their parents for not being supportive of their newfound awesomeness.
– we are worried that now everything is open except the church. He’s taken a stance, so I’m sure WoW is next, sexuality (maybe). I know the drill.
– he’s quoting this stuff to me that I know backwards and forwards (how can you trust the spirit, Adam & Eve aren’t literal, why do Mormons throw money into Prop
. He also doesn’t discern well between what is accurate criticism and what is utter bollocks.– I have wondered if we should suggest the Peace Corps as a mission alternative so he can get over himself a little bit.
Anyway, that’s not everything, just a quick mind vomit for you all. The worst thing is that I am afraid to say anything to him for fear it will be the wrong thing or not the right thing he needs. We are flying him home this weekend, but we’ll see how that goes. I don’t know what to expect.
I’ve thought about your situation throughout the day, and I want to share the following, just because. 1) Our oldest son was, essentially, inactive for the first two years of college. He was far from us, living in South Carolina, in an area and situation that made it hard for him to attend church. He had a serious girlfriend and . . . didn’t exactly live all of the commandments he was taught growing up. He came home, decided to serve a mission (surprised us with that one), loved it, came home again, enrolled in a different school, again was in an area and situation that made it almost impossible for him to attend church, got involved with another girl . . . and confessed to a good man who was a hardline Bishop. He was disfellowshipped and, basically, left on his own – with the assumption that he would find a way to attend church every week if he was serious and, if he didn’t attend every week, he wasn’t serious. As a result, he spent nearly two years disfellowshipped. He graduated from college in December, came home for a while, met our Bishop and now is a couple of weeks from getting a temple recommend again. Our Bishop talked with him, saw the condition of his heart, saw that he had been punished too long and expedited a very quick reinstatement period in order to allow him to attend his younger brother’s sealing next month. (As an aside, when our current Bishop talked with his last Bishop, the last Bishop said there was absolutely no chance our son was ready to be reinstated any time soon – since he wasn’t serious enough to even attend church every week. Our son had no car, and no active members lived within 20 miles of him – and he no active Home Teacher presence.) This son thrives when he is in a supportive environment and struggles when he is on his own without support.
2) Our second son has always been the most spiritual person in our family. If anything major and bad happens to someone in our family, it happens to him. Burst appendix, Type II Diabetes, most severe allergies, worst eyesight, speech issues as a young child . . . Rock solid, natural testimony – sweetest, most loving heart imaginable – magnet for goodness and light – voted Best Example of Christianity in Action his senior year in college (in an area where Mormons still are mistrusted) – etc. We always knew he would serve a mission. He is getting sealed next month, but he won’t serve a mission – because his fiance’s family is anti-Mormon, and she needs his support. That is more important to him than serving a mission. This is the son who decided to do a ring ceremony two days after the sealing, so none of her family and their friends would be left out of the celebration.
3) Our oldest daughter is a force of nature – and I mean that seriously. She has majored in Physics & Engineering, Business and Finance, Cosmetology (Yeah, I know.) and, this fall, German or International Studies. She is a hardcore feminist, has no inhibitions (once told a Mormon guy who was attending BYU to “shut up and grow a pair”), voted for Pres. Obama only because there wasn’t a legitimate Socialist candidate who had a prayer of being elected (and said it that way while living in Provo), is an absolute guy magnet (a magnetic smile, and being naturally skinny with a 32C cup size doesn’t hurt
😆 ). She is serving a mission in Germany and absolutely loving it. In her words, she and her companion are “working it like bosses”.4) Our second daughter is the female version of our second son – minus the physical problems. She is the reincarnation of my wife – a naturally spiritual and loving person – and the stereotypical middle child. We have no idea if she will serve a mission, but she is a freshman in college in Utah (not BYU), so that might move her in that direction.
5) Our third daughter is the same age as her mother when we met – and officially has a boyfriend in the ward. (She is about 5’3″, and her boyfriend is about 6’5″. It’s really cute, actually.) I would be surprised if she serves a mission, unless he does (which wouldn’t have been remotely a possibility until he met her), since they would be serving at roughly the same time.
6) Our fourth daughter (and youngest child) is the one I mentioned who wonders if she is lesbian. She is a natural actor (truly gifted in that regard), who just landed a lead role (in only her second play ever) in a very accomplished community youth theatre production, competing against high school girls who have been acting for years. It’s incredible to watch her on stage, and I wouldn’t be surprised at all if she ends up making a living in that arena. (Her older brothers were involved in theatre in college and have some impressive connections they could tap to help her.) If that happens, it’s not like her questions of sexuality will disappear.
My point is just that all of my kids are unique individuals, and the paths of their lives are turning out very differently than each other – and differently than my wife and I would have guessed a few years ago. It’s an interesting ride, and I hold to the ancient statement:
Quote:Train up a child in the way s/he should go, and when s/he is
OLD, s/he will not depart from it. That says absolutely nothing about what they will do while still in their relative youth.
I really believe that, as a general rule, and I interpret it broadly enough that all I can do is let them go and trust they will be good people, no matter what the exact details of their lives include. I hope they all stay involved and active in the Church, but that isn’t my greatest hope for them. My greatest hope is that they become “godly” people, however that is manifested in their lives.
Yes, that scripture was a favorite of my mom’s too, and it keeps turning in my mind, but she always used it in reference to my two sisters who left the church (two stayed in, and one is back in after ups and downs; my brother is still in the church too; several of my siblings’ kids have left). One sister who left is 64 now, and the other is 59. They left as teens and aside from the second one trying to scam church welfare at the behest of her husband, they’ve never returned. Since both parents are converts, I think that was hard for them, but they really aren’t jerks about it either. They are very black & white literalist believers themselves, though. They just aren’t pushy with their kids usually because it doesn’t work. Ken’s family is half in and half out now. He has two sisters who quit the church before leaving home and a brother who served a mission, but has since stopped believing and is living with his GF that he plans to marry this summer, although it’s quite clear from what he’s said that he’s just doing it rather than break up with her. My son really identifies with this uncle, and he is a lot like him which worries me.
I am curious, have you had any nuanced discussions with him in the past? I wonder about addressing issues with my own kids as they are entering teen years. Ray, I had no idea your family is so diverse. Your daughter on a mission reminded me of a nephew I have that bucks the norms but for a long time had a “straight arrow” GF that was attracted to his “rebel” side. Thankfully they didn’t marry because we all know after the vows the wife would want him to conform.
The stories are all unique, but have common themes. I think of my parents, both have ancestors in the church back to the early 1830’s, they are die-hard true-blue literal and don’t question Mormons. I mentioned something about the priesthood ban essay recently (it came up naturally) and there was acknowledgment but then the subject was dropped. I think it is uncomfortable. I think of them as a young married couple, both from large families they expected to also have a large family. Fertility doesn’t always cooperate and they ended up with two children, myself and my older sister. They have siblings with 40 or so grandchildren and they barely top a half-dozen. It is easy to see they hoped I would make up for their slow start, but I have never known or been comfortable with a house full of kids. My sister after more than twenty years of a temple marriage not only decided the church isn’t for her – but had an affair and ultimately was excommunicated, left/divorced her husband and I think at least partly condemns both the church and my parents for leading her down a bad life path.
Life is not easy.
Thanks everyone for sharing a bit about your stories. It is all real when it is in our homes, and our children. I have no problems with a nuanced faith and diverse set of beliefs…but when my daughter started smoking…well…that was the real test for how I can live what I talk about on this site. Do I really thing WoW is no big deal? Well, then, why does her smoking bother me.
Yes, these things become real.
Angela, I’m sorry to hear about your son. I like how you and your husband work together through that. Be grateful for that. In the end, those are the types of bonds and things that are most important…whether the kids serve a mission or not.
My oldest daughter decided when the age limit was lowered for missions, she was putting her papers in and going. Only to be told by a bishop that she messed up too much in high school and could not go. It devastated her. She has issues from being told to read the Miracle of Forgiveness and I’ve tried to coach her through understanding she is worthy and repentance does work…that whole thing…because she doesn’t think she will ever go to the CK.
My 2nd daughter would never go. She wants a tattoo and she is bugged by bishops that tell her she must change who she is. She wants to find her own way…and is the most open to me out of any of the kids. She thinks like me more than anyone, and is always impressed I keep going to church even with ideas we share.
So…like what Brian said…what is worse…too much religion and then have to pull it back when the church does things to hurt you? Or less religion and ratchet it up as the person wants it?
It seems no matter how you do it…reality is a bitch and will test us all and all our feelings and what we truly believe.
At the end of the day…we love each other as family, right? That’s the most important. Church is interesting to navigate around.
Angela, my heart goes out to you. Has your son considered taking up residency in Utah and going to the U? It’s quite a bit different, and being a democrat will be much more embraced there. I think he would like it, but who knows. My wife’s family all went to BYU except her youngest sister went to Utah. They blame Utah for her losing her testimony, but I think she would have lost it no matter where she went to school. She hung around atheists in high school–U of Utah had no impact either way. Does your son know you are here at StayLDS? I’d love to hang out with him and bounce ideas. (I teach at UVU, just down the road from BYU.) I have a game there on Feb 20, and could show him around the ESPN truck. Would he be interested in that?
Quote:have you had any nuanced discussions with him in the past?
Yes, I’m very open about things I think, things I don’t like, and also pointing out where critics are uninformed or in my opinion wrong-headed. His dad too is not a very black & white guy, although he doesn’t have any non-believing past like I do.
Quote:Has your son considered taking up residency in Utah and going to the U?
Yes, that’s a big part of his plan forward. One of his SAS buddies (Singapore American School) goes to the U of U (he’s not Mormon nor does he really have any ties; he just happens to be from Idaho). His other alternative is ASU, but he seems to strongly prefer U of U for undergrad, I think mostly because downtown SLC is so democrat.
I was initially more upset about the lost mission opportunity than just about anything else, but today it occurs to me that my mission was perhaps very exceptional. I’m not sure he would like a mission where rules and black & white thinking prevail. My mission was full of semi-reformed apostates, a clueless but good-natured president, and a lot of freedom and living on the beach. In that environment you could really choose the kind of missionary you wanted to be, and that kind of freedom is where I thrive and where someone like him would thrive, IMO.
I hated BYU as much as he has (or in the ball park), but unlike him, I didn’t leave although I very nearly did. My best friend from HS went to Millersville University in PA, but it was a pretty crappy school and way more expensive, and I would have had to pay for it. Plus, my parents would have freaked because my best friend in HS was a guy (just a friend, but that doesn’t mean they would have seen that as acceptable). Of course, as kids we also fear our parents’ authority more than is warranted because when kids do stuff like this, parents in fact have really no control over it. I could be a douchebag and cut off his funds, but that’s counterproductive and mean spirited. I want him to successful. I’m not trying to prove he’s a failure by grinding his face into the ground.
If he’s going to leave, it’s better to do it earlier rather than later. My sister has a girl and 5 sons. The daughter got married in the Denver Temple about a year ago. The oldest son is very bright, and very shy. He’s the kind of kid who didn’t like to do his homework in high school, so he got bad grades, but scored like a 33 on the ACT test. Anyway, he’s really shy, and not very driven. My sister said that she would pay for him to either go on a mission or go to college, but if he was going to choose neither, then he was going to have to start paying rent to live at home. At age 21 he decided to finally put his papers in, and we were going to go to his farewell earlier last year. I knew it was getting close, so I asked my sister when his farewell was, and she said he changed his mind. Now he’s working at a dairy, and paying rent (and playing video games in his free time.) My sister’s husband didn’t go on a mission until age 21. He has a brother who is also very shy, never went on a mission, and is still living with his parents as he approaches the age of 50. He got an accounting degree, but is so shy that he hasn’t been able to get a job in accounting. If you meet him, he seems like a sharp guy. He’s been a ski instructor, and is currently a produce manager at a grocery store–not using that accounting degree at all. I know my sister is worried her son will turn out like his uncle, and I don’t know what to say. The uncle isn’t very active. I think both of these guys are just incredibly shy (almost to the point of disability–they seem normal–but quiet when you meet them.) I don’t know what to think.
My dad kind of pushed me out the door for my mission. I had braces, so I didn’t go right when I turned 19. I was supposed to go the summer after I turned 19 because I had my braces off then. I remember seeing a job where I was supposed to travel door-to-door to sell smoking cessation products for the summer. At 19, it seemed like a good idea. My dad knew better than me, and told me not to worry about money. My dad can be a jerk about money, and I didn’t want to owe him anything, so that’s the biggest reason I wanted to take that stupid job (in hindsight, dad was right.) But dad basically threatened me to go right then. I went, but the first year of my mission was extremely difficult. I had a rough time with companions, and all the guys in the MTC baptized right away, while I didn’t. (That was a source of pain for me.) The first year of my mission was a personal struggle for both me and my dad. He has blamed himself for my rough time, wondering if he hadn’t pushed if I might have had a better time. (Who knows?) But he has stated again that he would never repeat the mistake. He didn’t push either of my brothers like he did me. My brother went on him mission (to Missouri) and had a great time. My other brother went to Florida and struggled with depression. He ended up coming home early due for medical reasons.
Anyway, that’s my experience. My son is 11. He’s a good kid–very studious–a little quirky, and has stated that he doesn’t want to go on a mission. I don’t know what to make of it, but he’s pretty young so I haven’t pushed at all. We went to see the movie “The Saratov Approach” about the Mormon missionaries that get kidnapped in Russia (a true story), and I joked with my son and asked if it made him want to go on a mission. Of course he said no. I guess I have 7 more years to get to the point where you are.
But know this: I hesitated a bit at 19–I think it is common for many young men to hesitate.
I’ve often said the first year of my mission was hell. The next 6 months was the terrestial world, and the final 6 months was the celestial kingdom. It isn’t for everybody. My second companion nearly went home because he was worried about his girlfriend getting married (she did about 6 months later.) I could tell you all sorts of stories about this guy. To my surprise he made it the whole 2 years. I guess my mission was different than most–I think I helped him survive the 2 years, but my companionship with him were 3 of the most hellish months of my mission. After the mission, he married a new girl, started a family, and moved to Cedar City, working as a computer guy. Now on Facebook, I see he has brain cancer, and he gives lots of updates about his condition. (My next companion I literally got in a fist fight with. Yeah, the first year was no picnic, that’s for sure.)
I don’t know what my point is. I guess it is this. Sometimes there is no good answer, and we just have to muck through life. I’m glad I went on a mission, but it was not the best 2 years of my life.
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