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If you were to flip the question to “How do you think the Church wants you to answer, that you show more interest in being a good thinker, or thinking well of the Church?” (At this point I think we should distinguish “Church” as our leaders).
Have you experienced a “jumping the shark” moment, where the Church expects you to believe something that is (or was) over the top? At that point, were they interested in what you thought, or whether you thought well of the Church?
Valoel said
Quote:Look, all I see around me on Sunday are fascinating people who are for the most part doing their very best to be good people. Most of the time, they succeed. *Shrug* what can I say? I’m pretty flawed myself too.
This is heart and soul of the LDS, and I concur.
However, I’m dwelling within the head- Sort of getting into your heads, if you will.
Has the Church ever “jumped the shark” with you?
Not me. I won’t let anyone do that, even when they try. This is my faith, as we say here. primarycolor wrote:If you were to flip the question to “How do you think the Church wants you to answer, that you show more interest in being a good thinker, or thinking well of the Church?”
(At this point I think we should distinguish “Church” as our leaders).
I think that the Church (or the leaders specifically) like to think that members are good thinkers, that we think critically and examine ideas for truth. That is a huge part of the grand Mormon mythology – that Joseph the questioner restored truths to Christianity that were lost by asking God critical questions. Mormon religion in fact attempts to tackle the greatest conundrums of Christianity with confident and well-thought answers, unafraid of breaking with custom and creed to get there.
From that traditional perspective, and my observation of conversations with very TBM thinkers in my ward, I believe they feel like they really dig deep into the issues. I’m talking about the “deep doctrine” types, you all probably know what I mean.
Do Mormons think critically of themselves? Yeah, I think most don’t really go there too much. So in that I agree. Not a lot of members that I know personally know a whole lot of real history about the Church or its development.
Valoel It’s been proven to me, time, time and again that the Church (it’s leaders) are more interested in you thinking well of the Church- than whether you think well.
It’s Okay. And I know where you’re coming from. Yes I know and appreciate the deep doctrine types. And I’m not saying that there aren’t brilliant Mormons. But when you get down to brass tacks, feelings over ride thinking- 100%.
If you have a concern, an idea, a suggestion that in any way may contradict the handbook, doctrines or practices, a leader will tug at that rug your standing on- your testimony, and call it into question. Pulling that rug out from under you, leaving you nothing to stand on. Any rationale or reasoning is of no consequence.
You said:
Quote:Mormon religion in fact attempts to tackle the greatest conundrums of Christianity with confident and well-thought answers, unafraid of breaking with custom and creed to get there.
That was in a time, long, long ago and far, far away. I am frustrated that we don’t seem to have any brave leaders willing to go out on a limb and address changes that have been made, need to be made, or will be made. Who will address doctrines that have blurred and transformed (as if we didn’t notice?). I don’t mind the changes, I mind the non-acknowledgment of them, etc.
“Once the brethren have spoken, all THINKING has been done.”
But, in my opinion, they haven’t really been saying anything that we can really think about.
We obviously have had VERY different experiences. I had a deep discussion recently with a NOM LDS friend (six generations in the church). We sat and drank Dr. Peppers and I outlined four changes which to me would cause much applause and rejoicing amongst the LDS faithful. I suggested: (1) Let home teaching end. It has lived out its usefulness. Give a card to all your families, with your phone numbers/Email addresses. Tell them to call if they EVER need you for any reason. Tell them how you love (or would love) seeing them in church. Let it end now.
(2) In the name of all which is sacred, let non-members & less-active members begin attending the temple weddings of their children. Be as Christ, stop building barricades between loved ones not of our creed, or commitment. Do it in the name of their sacred families.
(3) Reduce the three hour block. The gas difficulties which started it have longed ended. Two hours max. Alternate Sunday School and Priesthood/Relief Society every other Sunday. The day off recently in Utah for the temple dedication, how WONDERFUL! Some churches curtail all their programs in the summer, because of vacations and such. We can learn much from other faith communities.
(4) Let missions drift into service for mankind. My youngest son said his mission was 80% service. Italians didn’t want to hear about LDS teachings, but they loved young men helping with the burden of farm labor. And the immigrant peoples, how they loved the Americans who helped ease their frightening new lives with laughter and skate boarding. What would Christ has us do?
In the end we recycled our glass bottles and separated, while visions of sugar plums danced in our heads…. Yea, I know a fairy-tale.
1) Nope. Frankly, if HT were done as it is supposed to be done, it wouldn’t be a concern. HT is VITAL for many people in the “real world” – one of the simple ways for us to serve each other. Just because we don’t do it like it’s intended isn’t a reason to do away with it. 2) I like this, personally, but don’t equate this with what Christ would want. We have NO record of Jesus EVER teaching that the temple of his day should be open to all. Good idea, sure – but no basis in ANY scripture we have.
3) Nope. People who are looking for ways to complain do so about the three hour block, then they turn around and complain that the Church doesn’t teach enough about controversial topics. You’ve done it yourself here in this forum. Pick one and don’t complain about the result.
4) “What would Chist have us do?” Based on what HE actually said, he would have the regular members serve and love and the full-time missionaries teach and preach and baptize – exactly what the Church’s official approach is. Just because the membership doesn’t hold up our end of the effort doesn’t mean the missionaries should do what we are supposed to do and stop doing what they are supposed to do – according to the words of Jesus himself.
I am being very direct here, because of the implication that Jesus would have us do something that, frankly, is directly oposed to what he actually taught and lived. I simply see no scriptural justification for any of your suggestions, and pitting “The Church” against Jesus in this context, especially when the arguments are so flawed, is NOT the purpose and mission of this site.
Ray, My vision is alleviative in nature. It is meant to make the church more popular. My suggestions are built around the comments I hear from TBM members. I know they will probably never happen, thus it is what it is, a vision. My walk is with a loving Savior. He’s user friendly. He loves me no matter what. If we as members can’t make suggestions to the brethren regarding our policies and procedures, then who can? Isn’t feedback on how the membership sees things important? We are a church of continuing revelation AND the members are the church.
Perhaps I error. I did my home teaching faithful for half a century. Most of the time my welcome was hesitant. I saw the pain of non-member parents when their son left for a building they couldn’t enter (my parents). I see my daughter-in-laws struggling with their babies in the three hour block system (I actively help actually). I spoke with my three sons about their wide spread missions. They complained of wasted teaching time, but they loved service for and in behalf of their adopted cultures.
If there is no room at STAYLDS for old men to dream their dreams, I will retire. I have only come to find solace in my desire to remain in the LDS church. I note you appear to be unbending in your devotion to the status quo. Liahonas try to love Iron Rods, but do Iron Rods love Liahonas? I recognize your efforts, your service to this site. And as a fellow follower of Christ, I love you.
Interesting exchange…I am the epitome of “Liahonas,” so as an observer, I hope it doesn’t get too confrontational — I love both your posts! One thing I want to say is that I agree with the issue of weddings. It is absolutely divisive, unnecessary, and I have spoken to a few GAs that are doing what they can to change the policy. It WILL happen.
Sometime. Love will prevail over fear.
Quote:I note you appear to be unbending in your devotion to the status quo.
Again, a very direct response:
Have you been reading my comments and posts carefully?
I don’t think there is ANYONE else here who would categorize me as “unbending in [my] devotion to the status quo”. If I’m wrong, I’m wrong – but that simply isn’t a reasonable summary of what I write here.
Also, you didn’t address what I actually wrote AT ALL.I took the time to address your comment point-by-point. You responded by not taking responsibility for your own words – instead claiming to be speaking for TBM’s you know – and blaming me for running you off this site. You dodged my actual comment entirely. PLEASE, consider that carefully. I am being very blunt and direct for a reason:
Nobody can move past disilllusionment and bitterness until they take ownership of their own feelings, beliefs and actions – and you aren’t doing that. You are blaming “the Church” for your situation and “dreaming” of how great things would be if only “the Church” would change. You are talking about leaving this site simply because I disagreed with somthing you wrote.
I want the Church to change in many ways every bit as much as you do – and I’ve said so openly in many threads here. I have extremely heterodox views on many things, and I’ve said so openly in many threads here. We are very open to lots of different perspectives here –
but one of them is NOT, “It’s the LDS Church vs. Jesus”– and especially when what is attributed to Jesus doesn’t match the words and actions we have that are attributed to him. Please understand what I am saying. I know EVERY moderator and admin wants you here – IF you can contribute contructively to the discussions about how to “stayLDS” and reconcile (in whatever way works individually) personally difficult issues. What we don’t want is, “The LDS Church vs. Jesus”.
If that is where you are right now, God bless you (sincerely).Just take it somewhere else and don’t blame me for leaving. If you can participate in a way that takes responsibility for your own happiness and joy, doesn’t blame others (the Church or me) and works to find closure and peace, God bless you – here, with us. The choice is yours – and that is about the only area where I am unbending. Thank you Ray for your response. I am first to admit I have not read many many of the comments in the threads. I have a large active family and they fill most of my days. I will read more of your comments to better understand your position on the issues. I know to stand in another’s moccasins is wise. I remember a posting where you spoke of your own large loving family. I relate to that. Perhaps we are not so different. As a convert, part of a family that rejected the church, my path up the mountain is more convoluted than yours. I do love the hard work you do in serving this website. I want to be heard, to add my occasional thought (for what it’s worth). In retirement, to sit with an LDS friend, enjoy a soda and talk about treasured institutions is a joy. That includes the church that I have given 51 years to. I am not a revelator, I’m just an old guy. My 45 years with the Boeing Company saw many programs grow old, thus ended their usefulness. I tend to equate those observations to our church. I probably error in that (its a work related disease). If however, any of my four visions become policy in the next couple of decades, please place flowers on my grave (acknowledgment – ha, ha). I appreciate your taking time to discuss my four visions. Christ and his church are one. They help us learn of his Glory and Majesty.
PS: You have made 1217 postings, I have made 59. Does that reveal who the new kid on the block is? (I have a lot of reading to do, you are Paul, I’m Barnabas in the writers mode).
I’ve been here a LONG time – relatively speaking. 
Thanks for the tone and nature of your repsonse, george. I really appreciate it.
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