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Obviously I do not want to address them here nor do I want to explain why something is troubling or what the fixes are. But I want to address on the podcast the main issues that make it difficult to completely reconcile with the church. So for instance in the open Stories Survey the following were mentioned –
First Vision Accounts
Book of Abraham
Seer Stones
Polygamy
Polyandry
ect…
If the Mods will be patient with me, I just want the issues named. And specifically things that if they could be explained in a faithful way that made sense, would remove barriers to faith in the church. I realize there are dozens of things that make you think twice… “how could the church be what it claims and that happen” but I want to narrow the thoughts down to a few things that disaffected say to themselves, “If I had a good solution/answer/framework for that issue I could believe again” and perhaps it is the church explaining and apologizing for neglecting to tell the full historical story.
I don’t want you whole bag just the one(s) that does not allow you to put it back together.
Again I want to follow rules – so please no explanations of why it is problematic, nor explaining solutions – just a one or two word statement of the issue. I will then begin to address these in a way that is not apologetics but just trying to see if there is more understanding out there through the podcast.
Using feelings as a source of truth/knowledge. Posted from my Note 2 using Tapatalk 2
We’ve talked about my theme — Expectations are out of line with “reality.” This can be a very difficult thing to modify in LDS culture. My crisis of course included all the standard issues but the “killer” element was I simply saw way too much “humanness” and not enough unquestionable divine guidance. It could have been different if I had been taught from the beginning to see a mix of mortal impetus in church direction mixed in with divine inspiration, but my pioneer roots emphasized “your leaders are inspired” and “you will be blessed for your obedience” to the degree that I was unprepared to see as much fallibility as there is.
I think we can be overly intellectual. Our most important problems are in the day to day. Science vs stated doctrine Gay marriage
Political coercion of members
Racism
Sexism
Unhealthy attitude towards sexuality
Temple ceremony
Word of Wisdom inconsistencies
Some of these are unique to the LDS church and some are not.
temple ceremony fear and discouragement that I will be hiding too significant a portion of my true thoughts and feelings at church forever
polygamy “then” and in the future – I don’t think it is a loving god’s plan for me and my daughters
profound loss of trust and respect for Joseph Smith – I understand the obvious – No one is perfect – but am still left with my visceral, negative reaction to him
DBMormon wrote:Obviously I do not want to address them here nor do I want to explain why something is troubling or what the fixes are. But I want to address on the podcast the main issues that make it difficult to completely reconcile with the church…
I just want the issues named…please no explanations of why it is problematic, nor explaining solutions – just a one or two word statement of the issue. Sorry I can’t do 2-word explanations in most cases but here is the best summary I could come up with:
1. Attempts to deny evolution by Bruce R. McConkie, Joseph Fielding Smith, etc.
2. Official claim that Adam was literally the first man
3. No death before the fall idea in the BoM (2 Nephi 2:22-23)
4. LDS scriptures appear to support literal global flood interpretation (Moses 8, Ether 13:2).
5. LDS scriptures appear to support literal tower of Babel story (Ether 1:33)
6. LDS scriptures appear to support 6 thousand year old earth (D&C 77:6-7,10)
7. Institute manual defends alleged genocide by Moses
8. Racial priesthood ban + prophets will never lead the Church astray
9. Polygamy + prophets will never lead the Church astray
10. Book of Abraham translation discrepancies
11. Joseph Smith’s comments about Moon Quakers
12. Joseph Smith married women still married to other men
13. Joseph Smith was convicted of “money digging”
14. Zelph
15. The Kirtland bank failure
16. The Kinderhook plates
17. The Greek Psalter incident
18. Nancy Rigdon
19. Fanny Alger
20. Account of Joseph Smith bragging about being a “profitable prophet” better than Mohammed
21. John C. Bennett was Assistant President of the Church
22. Joseph Smith and other Church leaders drank wine the night he was killed
23. Brigham Young: “Adam is God”
24. Brigham Young: “Death on the spot”
25. Blood atonement
26. The Mountain Meadows Massacre and aftermath
24. Similarity between temple ordinances and Masonic rites
25. Brigham Young used chewing tobacco
26. Joseph Fielding Smith’s claim that men would never go to the Moon
27. Claim that sexual sins are next to murder
28. Spencer W. Kimball’s claim that masturbation leads to homosexuality
29. Church leaders duped by Mark Hoffman regarding the Salamander Letter
30. Gordon B. Hinckley interviews make revelation sound the same as average members praying
31. Gordon B. Hinckley: “don’t worry about those little flecks of history”
32. Fourteen fundamentals reiterated by 2 different speakers in recent conference
33. Cult-like warning sign: Extremely zealous and unquestioning commitment to leaders
34. Cult-like warning sign: Strong emphasis on us-versus-them mentality and special status of the group
35. Cult-like warning sign: Strong use of peer pressure, guilt, and shame to control behavior
36. Church’s direct involvement in Prop. 8
37. Tithing amount is excessive and doesn’t add up fairly in different situations
38. Magical thinking about supposed connection between strict obedience and guaranteed blessings
39. It looks like Native Americans principal ancestors came to America from Asia through the Bering Strait over 10,000 years ago rather than from Jerusalem about 600 BC
40. Steel, horses, massive battles and civilizations, etc. in BoM don’t match archaeological evidence you would expect to find in this case very well.
41. The current WoW interpretation looks like the revelation that never really happened
I could probably shrug off any handful of these issues but it was all of them together plus more that made it feel impossible for me to resovle my doubts anymore. Basically I can summarize most of my issues with the Church as simply that it looks to me like Church leaders have repeatedly shown that they didn’t really know what they were talking about in hindsight but at the same time I’m not allowed to openly question or criticize what they say.
America-/Utah-centrism, cultural insensitivity. White shirt, skirts
Succession crisis
Shopping malls, financial speculation
Claiming Columbus as a man of God
Dropping Lectures on Faith.
The only true and living church. 14 fundalmentals of the prophet.
Two lines of communication.
“Wolves in Sheep clothing.”…the way leaders treat those who doubt.
Financial transparency.
Pharasicial practices like white shirts.
Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2
Wow, DA! Do you have that list on your fridge for easy access? 
I’m not as concerned about doctrinal issues as I am about social and cultural issues (although they occasionally intersect:
1-Treatment of single adults as second class citizens, not “real” adults, etc.
2-Pressure to marry and reproduce before economically and emotionally mature
3-Treatment of LGBTs as non-persons
4-Highly negative teachings about sexuality based upon personal and cultural ideas, not on revelation
5-Suppression and stigmatization of intellectuals
6-Disingenuous claims of political neutrality
7-Mediocre sermons, teaching, and music at LDS services
8-Focus on only serving other LDS people, rather than being more active in our communities
9-Focus on compliance to laundry list of commandments rather than talk of Christ and development of Christian attributes
10-The worthiness rat race, accompanied by guilt, shaming, and manipulation
11-Elitist attitudes about, and labeling of “non-members”, “inactive members”, etc.
I love the scriptures and most of the teachings of JS. I am surrounded by good, caring, loving people in the church. I think we have the potential to become Zion. But the things listed above often make me wish I were elsewhere on Sundays…
turinturambar wrote:Wow, DA! Do you have that list on your fridge for easy access?
I would but I don’t want my wife to accuse me of being an anti-Mormon. I honestly don’t hate the Church I just don’t trust the leaders, scriptures, lessons, etc. very much anymore (for good reason as far as I’m concerned).
I win! My reply was the shortest! 😈 When I first had my faith crisis, I’d say: – Nauvoo-era polygamy (especially how the slanderous lies in the Nauvoo Expositor seemed to be pretty accurate)
– Book of Abraham
– Kinderhook Plates
– lack of Christ-centered worship
– just an overwhelming, nagging feeling, that if God wanted to give all his children a “way back” to him, that he probably wouldn’t convey it in a manner that requires suspension of so much common sense and moral conscience.
Now-a-days, I’d also add:
– draconian tithing stance (pay it even if you can’t afford it, pay 10% of gross).
– Prop 8
– Book of Mormon as literal
– Utah-era polygamy
– Subjugation of women (which I can precisely define, in my mind, as the intertwining of priesthood and hierarchy… you have to have the priesthood to do most anything in the church, not just the performing of ordinances).
– 14 Fundamentals
DevilsAdvocate wrote:DBMormon wrote:Obviously I do not want to address them here nor do I want to explain why something is troubling or what the fixes are. But I want to address on the podcast the main issues that make it difficult to completely reconcile with the church…
I just want the issues named…please no explanations of why it is problematic, nor explaining solutions – just a one or two word statement of the issue. Sorry I can’t do 2-word explanations in most cases but here is the best summary I could come up with:
1. Attempts to deny evolution by Bruce R. McConkie, Joseph Fielding Smith, etc.
2. Official claim that Adam was literally the first man
3. No death before the fall idea in the BoM (2 Nephi 2:22-23)
4. LDS scriptures appear to support literal global flood interpretation (Moses 8, Ether 13:2).
5. LDS scriptures appear to support literal tower of Babel story (Ether 1:33)
6. LDS scriptures appear to support 6 thousand year old earth (D&C 77:6-7,10)
7. Institute manual defends alleged genocide by Moses
8. Racial priesthood ban + prophets will never lead the Church astray
9. Polygamy + prophets will never lead the Church astray
10. Book of Abraham translation discrepancies
11. Joseph Smith’s comments about Moon Quakers
12. Joseph Smith married women still married to other men
13. Joseph Smith was convicted of “money digging”
14. Zelph
15. The Kirtland bank failure
16. The Kinderhook plates
17. The Greek Psalter incident
18. Nancy Rigdon
19. Fanny Alger
20. Account of Joseph Smith bragging about being a “profitable prophet” better than Mohammed
21. John C. Bennett was Assistant President of the Church
22. Joseph Smith and other Church leaders drank wine the night he was killed
23. Brigham Young: “Adam is God”
24. Brigham Young: “Death on the spot”
25. Blood atonement
26. The Mountain Meadows Massacre and aftermath
24. Similarity between temple ordinances and Masonic rites
25. Brigham Young used chewing tobacco
26. Joseph Fielding Smith’s claim that men would never go to the Moon
27. Claim that sexual sins are next to murder
28. Spencer W. Kimball’s claim that masturbation leads to homosexuality
29. Church leaders duped by Mark Hoffman regarding the Salamander Letter
30. Gordon B. Hinckley interviews make revelation sound the same as average members praying
31. Gordon B. Hinckley: “don’t worry about those little flecks of history”
32. Fourteen fundamentals reiterated by 2 different speakers in recent conference
33. Cult-like warning sign: Extremely zealous and unquestioning commitment to leaders
34. Cult-like warning sign: Strong emphasis on us-versus-them mentality and special status of the group
35. Cult-like warning sign: Strong use of peer pressure, guilt, and shame to control behavior
36. Church’s direct involvement in Prop. 8
37. Tithing amount is excessive and doesn’t add up fairly in different situations
38. Magical thinking about supposed connection between strict obedience and guaranteed blessings
39. It looks like Native Americans principal ancestors came to America from Asia through the Bering Strait 12,000 years ago rather than from Jerusalem about 600 BC
40. Steel, horses, massive battles and civilizations, etc. in BoM don’t match archaeological evidence you would expect to see in this case very well.
41. The current WoW interpretation looks like the revelation that never really happened
I could probably shrug off any handful of these issues but it was all of them together plus more that made it feel impossible for me to resovle my doubts anymore. Basically I can summarize most of my issues with the Church as simply that it looks to me like Church leaders have repeatedly shown that they didn’t really know what they were talking about in hindsight but at the same time I’m not allowed to openly question or criticize what they say.
Well at least I know I have three months of episodes before I run out of ideas….. I do think it’s strange how we are all different. I am very familiar with everything on that list and yet see them all from a different lens. I look forward to talking about some if not most of these and the others that you folks have written….. thank you
Not trying to explain or give the answers I can’t help but make the observation that so many items on DA’s list can be categorized and addressed under broader terms. For example one major problem is expecting a near constant direct line of revelation to church leaders. I won’t deny that this idea is heavily embedded in LDS culture, but I would point to this as the problem to address instead of trying to explain every false statement made by a church leader. I see the scriptural “problems” in the same vein, namely that the human element involved in recording revelation makes all writing subject to error. The problem certainly compounds on itself when multiple statements are made that collectively lead members down this path of false expectations.
My addition to the list:
“The church” has no need of repentance it seems. That illusion is a big problem.
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