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I don’t know, Katie. The anonymity also tends to lesson the actual, internal repentance – making it easier to fall into the serial “easy confession” mode that I see in so many of my Catholic friends. Granted, it’s better in many ways than the “easy grace” mode of much of Protestantism, where confession simply disappears because someone believes they’ve already been saved almost no matter what they do, but it still cheapens confession a bit, imo. The whole concept of confession gets tricky when it is translated into an actual practice involving fallible humans, but, compared to much of what I’ve seen in the world, the Mormon version is one of the better options. It’s kind of a middle ground between Catholic anonymity and AA’s group confession.
(Ooh, that’s an idea: What if there was a “sponsorship” structure in the Church where the Bishop paired a confessor with a “mentor”. OK, just free-flowing here, since bringing in another person also would open a new possibility for abuse, but if a “mentor” was available right from the start, and if that mentor was the same sex as the confessor . . . I’ll have to think through that some more, also because it doesn’t really address the young man and young woman who simply are having a regular interview – and because that is what already is supposed to be happening with the adviser and class presidency structure, anyway, for the YM & YW.)
I’ll have to think some more about it.
Ray, that is interesting re: “easy grace” and “serial confession.” Since grace happens to be my biggest hang-up (I think we don’t preach it enough or clearly enough), I have some thoughts about that… The “easy grace” of many Protestants/Evangelicals is their biggest doctrinal downfall (imho). I think so many people take the easy way out, and are truly never converted to Jesus; they mistake some emotional (even spiritual) experience at a meeting or in an hour of need for true conversion. But if you’ve really accepted Christ into your heart, He will change your heart! So if your heart hasn’t changed–manifest through your outward actions–you’ve got to ask yourself seriously if you’re really converted to Him.
I have Protestant/Evangelical friends who create “confession lists,” where they write down the sins they can remember and take the list to God in prayer. They do it not because they are afraid of “losing their salvation” if they don’t, but because they want to eliminate sin from their life and because they want to be constantly reminded of how holy God’s standards are and how indebted they are to Him for granting them saving grace.
I think the scriptures teach clearly that confession is part of repentance, and continual repentance a crucial part of being sanctified through the Spirit. But where I find I’m getting lost these past few days is in the idea that confession to an authority figure is necessary–male or female–whether we see their role as a mediator, or facilitator, or whatever. I wonder if it might place an inappropriate barrier between sinner and Savior.
Katie, I have been thinking of posting here something I wrote a while ago about grace. I think I will do so, given your interest. I’ll have it posted in a little while. As far as confession goes, I don’t want everyone running to the Bishop to confess everything they’ve done and putting him between them and God for everything. I really do think there are only a few things that rise to the level of seriousness that requires using a Bishop – just those things that might get you excommunicated. In other words, I don’t see confession to a Bishop as a matter of determining individual worthiness so much as determining communal worthiness – for “sins against the community” or “sins that involve others”. I see the Bishop primarily as the “Judge in Israel” – the one who has to step in and adjudicate when something risks disruption to the greater community. For example, I know the link to some sexual sins is a bit tenuous in that regard, but it is rock solid for other sexual sins – and it’s the same for other categories. Gossip between two old ladies or young women might not be anywhere near needing his attention; gossip involving a member of the PEC or Ward Council might, especially if it involves information that is supposed to be confidential.
Fwiw, I think, in general, we take too many things to the Bishop. He’s not our version of a Catholic Priest.
This website deals with defining such. http://mormonalliance.org/definitions.htm Oh boy!! This opens up a whole can of worms for me. I had two mission presidents while on my mission. One was wonderful and another was horrible. Unfortunately, the one that was horrible I had most of the time. One of my favorite sister companions hit on me sexually one night when I was asleep and scared the living daylights out of me. I just froze and did not know what to do. I confronted her with this the next morning and she felt so horrible and apologized over and over. She did not understand herself why this happened and why she had bi-sexual feelings. Anyway, she felt so guilty that she went to confess to this horrible mission president. He made her feel like crap the rest of her mission and she ended up never forgiving herself. We stayed life long friends until she died a few years ago when I told her about my gay son who had not chosen these feelings either. I was only kind and loving to her because I knew this is what she needed (healthy love.) I finally asked her? Who do you think wants you to feel like garbage about yourself, God or Satan? She finally got the point that it was Lucifer and those horrible mission president that made her feel this way. This mission president also made me feel that I must have done something wrong too. It is very difficult having church leaders who have no professional training in some very important areas. I know the church was sued over a young man killing himself because a bishop told him that masturbating was a sin next to murder. Another incident was where a new convert sister had gone to a stake fireside and the stake president had told the members there that sex was only meant for couples to have with the intent of getting pregnant. She could not get pregnant and asked me if that meant she should never have sex with her husband. This is the crazy stuff we have to deal with in the church because of leaders with old fashioned ideas and hang-ups. We were given a brain to use it, but I think sometimes members think leaders know better than them. This is why I love this quote from Brigham Young: Personal Responsibility
By Brigham Young
In the early history of the Church, many converts who joined with the body of the Saints expected to find a spiritual utopia. Frustrated at finding that the communities of the Saints were populated with people, who in many instances were no better than themselves, some of these immigrants voiced their disillusionment and left the Church. These people had anticipated a Zion in which they could bask in spiritual light day and night. Longing to be nurtured by revelations, miracles, and manifestations of divine power, they sought heaven on earth. They did not realize that spiritual maturity often comes slowly and that many, like themselves, find the courage and strength necessary to overcome their own weaknesses. Of such people, Brigham Young would inquire, “What hinders you from enjoying all that you anticipated?” If you are not as you desire to be, if you do not feel the prompting or influence of the Holy Ghost to the extent that you think you should, where is the fault to be found? Responding to his own question, President Young explained that it was a mistake to suppose that others could prevent you from enjoying the light of God in your soul. “All hell,” he said, “cannot hinder me from enjoying Zion in my own heart, if my individual will yields obedience to the requirements and mandates of my Heavenly Master “ (JD 1:311). Brigham Young declared himself to be the only man in heaven, on earth, or in hell responsible for Brigham Young. Further he held that the same doctrine applied equally to every Latter-day Saint. Salvation is an individual matter. “I am the only person that can accept Christ and save myself,” said Brigham. We cannot pin our faith on someone else’s sleeve. No one can accept or reject salvation in behalf of another. It is not the object or design of the gospel to create spiritual dependence. Of those who constantly suspend their own judgment to lean upon others they suppose to have greater wisdom than themselves, President Young said that they ‘will never be capable of entering into the celestial glory to be crowned as they anticipate; they will never be capable of becoming gods.” They cannot rule themselves, let alone give direction to others. Spiritually, he likened them to children who need direction in every trifle. “They cannot control themselves in th least, but James, Peter, or somebody else must control them. They can never become gods, nor be crowned as rulers with glory, immortality, and eternal lives.” Who will?” asked President Young, “those who are valiant and inspired with the true independence of heave, who will go forth boldly in the service of their God, leaving others to do as they please, determined to do right, though all mankind besides should take the opposite course.” Ibid, p.312) (taken from SEEKING THE SPIRIT by Joseph Fielding McConkie)
katielangston wrote:Hi all!
It’s been a few weeks since I’ve stopped by, but an uncomfortable question was raised the other day during a discussion with an Evangelical friend, and I thought this would be a great place to get some feedback. I hope all are well!
Anyway, I was talking about salvation with my friend, and I was explaining my previously-held belief that repentance meant identifying each and every sin you ever committed and going through all the “steps” of repentance for each one (recognize, confess, make restitution, and finally petition God for forgiveness), otherwise you couldn’t be saved. Additionally, if I committed a “major” sin (read: sexual in nature) I would have to tell my bishop.
I shared with her my discomfort over that particular doctrine, because, as a young woman I had some “issues” I felt I needed to resolve with a bishop. It was very uncomfortable and awkward as an adolescent girl to have to talk to an adult male about such personal things. I also always felt very uncomfortable when they asked sexual purity questions in interviews, even if I hadn’t “done anything” wrong.
Anyway, after I shared this with my friend, she surprised me. She became really upset and said she felt like it was totally inappropriate for male bishops to be counseling with young women about such personal things. She even went so far as to term it “spiritual abuse.” I certainly never considered myself abused in this manner, though it was a pretty miserable experience. She couldn’t understand why a female leader couldn’t handle discipline for Young Women (and women in general, I guess). I’m wondering what you all think of this?
On related note, I have since come to question the validity of the doctrine of ecclesiastical confession in general. It makes me very uncomfortable to think that someone else can mediate, or define the terms, of someone’s repentance. Isn’t that between God and the sinner? I can appreciate that in some situations, a third party like pastor or bishop is a valuable sounding board for more serious problems, but it really bothers me that someone should be able to declare another person “worthy” or not.
Relief Society leaders in the old days did handle the confessions and repentance for the sisters except in very public very serious cases.
I have told my daughter who just turned 12 that there are only two questions the Bishop is allowed to ask her regarding sex: Do you live/keep the law of chastity? And: What do you understand the law of chastity to be? If he asks her anything else, she is to respond that she is uncomfortable with the question and request that I or her mother join her in the interview. I think, just to be safe, I will send the Bishop an email to this effect too. How do you think that would go over?
Quote:If he asks her anything else, she is to respond that she is uncomfortable with the question and request that I or her mother join her in the interview. I think, just to be safe, I will send the Bishop an email to this effect too. How do you think that would go over?
It should go over just fine. It probably won’t with every Bishop, but it should. Just be respectful and sincere.
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