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Minyan Man wrote:
Why doesn’t the leadership of the ward or stake stand & correct the message being “taught”? (The SP was in attendance.)
That’s a tough one.
I’ve had some challenges in life that I felt broke me. One of the harder things to process during a faith crisis was the notion that yes, I’m going through a rough spell, but there are other people out there that had it far worse than what I’m going through right now. God didn’t come to their rescue, surely god isn’t coming to mine.
Then you hear a lost keys testimony at church.
I don’t think you even can correct someone in that scenario. It’s real to the lost keys saint and you don’t want to tear them or their story down. When I’m in a lesson or meeting where something like that is shared I conclude that the most charitable thing I can do is accept their story at face value and quietly swallow any offense. Doesn’t feel good but I don’t know of a way to correct those beliefs or help people be more sensitive to others who feel as though god wasn’t there in their hour of need.
One way to look at it is that it’s an extension of the kind of faith where people attribute god’s hand in any happy or good thing that happens in their lives. The weather is nice. Thank you Jesus. Here’s a picture someone posted on social media of a rainbow with a kitten under it. Thank you Jesus. I found my keys, what a happy coincidence. Thank you Jesus.
That kind of thing.
I understand what you’re say nibbler. Here’s another situation. I do know what the response would be from the leadership. This is the situation: I get up at F&T meeting and proclaim that God revealed that I should live the
law of polygamy and testify to its teachings & truthfulness.
I know that’s an extreme example. But I think there would be at least one leader that would stand & talk about
it. Either in public or the Bishop’s office.
A few years ago, I was assigned to speak in SM about testimony. My talk was defined testimony in the legal sense as being a witness. I was not present at the founding moments of the church to testify to those but I do have personal experiences that I can share that support my belief in these things. I then shared about moments when I felt the spirit and felt loved by a higher power. The high councilman assigned to speak behind me started his talk by giving the very formulaic, “I know JS was a prophet etc.” He went on like this for the 5 or 6 basic tenets of the church and then he pivoted to his talk, that was not anyway related. It felt obvious and embarrassing that I was being publicly corrected. I had just spoken about testifying to what I have personally seen and felt and he comes in and boldly testifies to things that he was not present for.
This is because my talk contradicted (however gently) established church teachings on “bearing testimony.” IMO, People do not come to church to learn things. Most of the members come to church to be validated, confirmed, and affirmed in their pre-existing beliefs and biases. If you are affirming the church and the current teachings and leasers of the church, you will likely not be corrected even if what you say in not strictly true. If you contradict the church, current teachings, or the leadership, then you are likely to get censured even if what you say is 100% true.
Like Nibbler, part of me figures, “why rain on their parade.”
I wanted to be at church to learn things. I remember looking forward to the temple prep classes so I could learn new things about the temple and the church – and then actually being present in the class and being bored because whatever that was introduced was not terribly new.
I had this exact same discussion with my, at the time, bishop years ago. I expressed that part of my faith crisis came from my belief that payment of tithing would bless my family with protection. When our third child was stillborn, I was left reeling and questioning what I had done wrong. I finally came to the understanding that God never actually promises that he will protect our families in exchange for devoted church service (including tithing). After coming to that realization, those sort of “lost keys” testimonies would hit me differently and I felt that they were implying a quid pro quo relationship that I don’t think is fully supported in scripture or reality. Bishop was sympathetic and said that some members can get carried away in their testimonies and go beyond what the scriptures say in their zeal. I then showed Bishop a recent church publication that said that God will bless families for tithing payment with both spiritual and temporal blessings. He then backtracked and said, “well, God
canbless us temporally if needed.” I realized in that moment that I had found the line or limit in my bishop’s ability to sympathize with my experience. He was ok throwing the testimonies of well meaning members under the bus but not a church publication that said the same thing.
Also, there is no way to prove if God gets involved in everything, or somethings, or nothing. It really comes down to a matter of opinion.
Honestly, I am no better at “truth seeking” than anyone else. I was fine believing that God protected me and my family while not really concerning myself with the idea that God might allow the babies of others to die. It only blew up my worldview when my own baby died.
I think the only way to have the discussion at church is to get out ahead of the lost keys comment. Say something like, “There was a time in my life where I needed God but I could not feel his presence. Sometimes when people share stories about lost keys it makes me wonder why God was there for them over something relatively trivial but not there for me in my desperate hour of need.”
Again, the key (pun) is getting out ahead of the lost key comment. Say something like this
beforeanyone has had a chance to bring up lost keys. If you make a comment like that after someone’s already made the lost key comment then it feels like you’re shooting down someone’s personal spiritual experience. If you say it before then you’re sharing your personal experience and don’t have anyone in your crosshairs. nibbler wrote:
Say something like, “There was a time in my life where I needed God but I could not feel his presence. Sometimes when people share stories about lost keys it makes me wonder why God was there for them over something relatively trivial but not there for me in my desperate hour of need.”
I agree. I also think that members will expect you to include some sort of message about how you ultimately realized that you were being tested or that there was some greater divine purpose or that, even now, you wait patiently on the “Lord’s timing.”
I think most members would be mildly/moderately uncomfortable with you saying that you had felt that God abandoned you in your hour of need … and it was hard … but then you got used to it.
😥 Roy wrote:
I think most members would be mildly/moderately uncomfortable with you saying that you had felt that God abandoned you in your hour of need … and it was hard … but then you got used to it.😥
I have this conversation with my mother every few years.
She feeds me the standard talking points that I “Yes and…”
I am lucky enough that she sits with me in my faith transition as much as she does and how she has handled her faith adjustment a good 30 years ago and how she respected her atheist/agnostic father in law.
In my long life of church activity, I’ve only heard two testimonies that left the congregation stunned. But in neither case did the bishop say anything. One was by a sister who felt she had had it with the church, and stood up to say “This is goodbye!” Then she went on to elaborate her disillusionment with the church. She of course didn’t close with an “amen” or anything, and her tirade (which best describes it) was followed by a long, embarrassed silence after she strode out of the chapel. Finally someone got up and broke the ice. The other one was by a non-member visitor obviously of a very evangelistic persuasion. He gave a very rousing “Halleluia, praise the Lord!” type of talk. Heartfelt, to be sure, but not at all like a Mormon testimony. I wasn’t at all bothered by it, and in fact found it a bit of a refreshing change. But the bishop was getting red in the face, obviously wondering whether he should stand up and say something. He saved his comment for the next testimony meeting, where he emphasized that testimonies should only be borne by church members. (Is that really true? I don’t think so. I don’t understand why he and several others in the ward were so annoyed by it.) There does not appear to be any official prohibition against non-members sharing testimony. It is requested that such testimonies be faith (and LDS faith) affirming.
This is my opinion and conclusion: it isn’t wrong to question the spiritual experiences of other people. From my experience what is wrong is to jump up, pile on & emotionally accept what was testified to (or taught).
A testimony is not automatic acceptance of what was said or expressed.
The downside is it can be tremendous waste of time. It can lead members down a road that is contrary to
path God wants us to take. Then the church makes a declaration as follows:
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/2011/08/the-only-true-and-living-church?lang=eng My church experience can seem like a big puzzle for me sometimes. The only choices seem to be:
. Participate in the message & be inspired or risk being ostracized.
. Listen & become discouraged.
. Do something else that makes you happy or inspired.
I have to ask myself: What would Jesus do?
It can be frustrating sometime. At least it makes you think & evaluate what you believe.
When I was in another church, I just listened & quickly forgot what was taught or said.
My mileage and experiences are different. Spiritual experiences are meant to be questioned (and not acted on) when the consequences are harmful for others. A lot of “unrighteous dominion” is branded as “spiritual purity and improvement” and the spiritual experience is branded about as the motivation for the action. – We lose a lot of teenagers to suicide because our culture insists that gender and sexuality are of paramount importance in the eternal scheme of things.
– Families break up because a husband (and it’s usually a husband) insists that they have the correct perspective and refuse to listen to their wife and children and their perspective.
That being said, post-faith transition me considers the biggest sins to be:
a) Certainty – It removes space for Doubt, alternative life experiences, and creates Isolation and Division.
b) Human Purity – It usually robs Compassion and Loving-Kindness and pays greater attention to what isn’t necessarily important or balanced.
The few times I have been at church experiences since 2020, I go as an interested, polite observer who participates when there is suitable common ground. it works to keep me from contaminating that space with my heresy, but it costs my resources to be there and participate in that way. The lats time I was there, I felt very much like a self-imposed exile attempting to re-visit.
My life journey has provided me with alternative ways of introspection. I horrified my husband yesterday because I was comparing and contrasting Joseph Smith’s afterlife theology with Isekai (aka “other world”) anime [the stories about a person transported to a different planet to live a different life] while doing the dishes. Specifically, I find it hilarious about the number of those anime stories who wind up talking about polygamy and almost-polygamy relationships. Say what you will about Joseph Smith, he was a story-teller before he was a theologian (as much as he was one).
But that doesn’t actually help you a whole lot with the Fast & Testimony meeting experience:(
I find it easier to skip first Sunday. I don’t get much out of hearing testimonies and 2nd hour is Sunday School on first Sundays. I find that my spiritual goals and the spiritual goals of Sunday School in particular don’t align, so it’s easier to give myself a break from church on first Sundays. AmyJ wrote:
a) Certainty – It removes space for Doubt, alternative life experiences, and creates Isolation and Division.
Certainty also removes space for revelation. If you’re already sure you know everything, you have no incentive to learn more.
Minyan Man wrote:
I have to ask myself: What would Jesus do?
I can’t speak for Jesus but I would point out that flipping tables and spending 40 days alone in the wilderness are things he’s been reported as having done.
My line is always, “If Jesus is perfect and still needed 40 days in the wilderness to sort things out, it’s okay for me to spend as much time as I need, even up to several decades in the wilderness because I’m not perfect.”
I have struggled with things people “testify” about in the past, and were I more active I’d probably still struggle. That’s partly why I say that if I were to attend church I’d only stay first hour. But I’d also probably skip F&TM (as Nibbler says). Minyan Man wrote:
. Do something else that makes you happy or inspired.This is what’s working for me at the moment. It has worked in the past as well. Doing something else doesn’t necessarily mean not attending, it could be just going to your happy place in your mind. More often though I would just occupy my mind some other way with a tablet or phone or whatever. I’m not talking about playing Candy Crush, although that’s certainly an option of it works for you. What I have tended to do is “write my own talk” in my mind, or research something I am interested in. Just plain reading scriptures has worked for me also.
Minyan Man wrote:
I have to ask myself: What would Jesus do?I think Jesus demonstrated what he might do – he did his own thing. He was probably more open and blatant about it than I would be.
As I’ve mentioned before, we have recently moved into a new ward. This is a new experience for us. We were members of our old ward for almost 50 years. This week a member of our new ward took me
out for lunch. It was a very good experience. We asked questions about each of our lives, our families
and experiences inside & outside of church. The conclusion for both of us was, that even though we haven’t
lived a perfect life (problems & challenges) we can still apply the basic principles of the gospel as best
we can. We don’t have to be perfect. It was an interesting experience.
I wish I could have more experiences like that in the church & outside.
One of the conclusions I’m coming up with in this life is: living a superficial life is a waste of time. I believe
that God wants us to be close, emotionally & spiritually within the limits of the time we have on this earth.
And within the limits that we are comfortable with.
Everything I read in the scriptures about Jesus Christ is that’s what he tried to do in the personal relationships
he had in his short life. Or, am I reading too much into the scriptures?
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