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Old-Timer wrote:
Dj, meet HJ. HJ, meet DJ. Two cool people, meet each other. Now that you have been properly introduced, feel free to converse privately.
Seriously, DJ, I think talking with HiJolly privately is a great idea. He’s awesome, and it’s wonderful to see him whenever he decides to drop in on us.
Point taken, and thanks for calling me “cool.”In retrospect, I could have been more on task when responding to HJ and still not reveal that which I prefer to keep private. The incident to which I referred was a life decision, one which I not only felt inspired I should do but confirmed in prayer and fasting – I didn’t want to do it initially. It took place at a time in my life when I was feeling very spiritual and when things were generally going very well for me and my family. The outcome was not what I expected and, to paraphrase John Locke from Lost, “This isn’t the way it’s supposed to be.” Hence my great confusion, feeling pf betrayal, etc., based on a spiritual foundation for the decision and all decisions in general. I re-emphasize, this feeling was exactly like that I felt in the first missionary discussion, at my baptism, at my temple marriage, etc. as well as some areas of my testimony. I don’t know if anyone else has ever experienced what I have, but I do know what I experienced and what I felt – and what I have felt after. That said, this is only part of my status of inactivity, questions and doubts – it’s not that simple (but it is the basis of everything else).
Just one other point: As I have gone about rebuilding my faith,those things which I did not have a stronger spiritual experience with have been easier to to accept – things like Jesus Christ being the Savior and God existing.
The following experience made quite an impression on me and reminds me of your circumstance DJ Quote:Right after we got married, it became apparent to DH and I that getting pregnant was going to take more effort than it does for some folks. Fortunately, we did get pregnant but it was clear from the start that things weren’t quite right. There was spotting and a complete absence of pregnancy symptoms. The only reason we knew I was pregnant was a positive EPT. So I went to the obgyn and we saw the little kidney bean, heart pumping, looking and sounding just as a baby at 3 months ought to look and sound. It was thrilling. The doctor reassured me that “Once you see the heartbeat, 9 times out of 10 you aren’t going to miscarry.”
I got a blessing from my father, a stalwart member of the church with as much devotion and dedication to God as I’ve ever seen. He gave me a blessing and afterward shared what he felt were clear flashes of inspiration he’d received while preparing to exercise the priesthood on my behalf. He describe seeing my son, even details of what the child looked like. He wept as he spoke of the peaceful feeling he’d experienced while fasting and praying. Finally, I felt complete confidence that the pregnancy would go well.
About a week later, after returning home from teaching early morning seminary at the church and preparing to go to work as a school teacher, I began bleeding profusely. My husband and I rushed to the clinic where the Dr. performed an ultrasound and informed us that my uterus was empty. I looked at the doctor (keep in mind we live way outside of Utah and he was not LDS) and told him he was wrong, that I’d gotten a priesthood blessing and he’d better look again. I was the perfect picture of absolute faith in the priesthood.
He wasn’t wrong, of course, though it took a few minutes for him to establish that fact to my satisfaction. Everyone left the room so I could dress and there in the exam room alone and in shock and denial, my body completed the miscarriage and I “delivered” what remained of our first child.
This was one in a series of experiences that shook my faith to the core. How, after all I’d learned in church and at home, after all I’d taught as a missionary, could a priesthood holder stand by a spiritual witness that turned out to be so utterly false? And how could that priesthood holder be my father, the man I trusted more than any other? The man whose worthiness I could attest to personally? My father’s faith was also shaken and to this day, he offers no attempt at explanation. He simply says he still does not understand.
http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2155&p=31133&hilit=pregnant+miscarrige#p31133 I can understand why some find great comfort and stability in their spiritual experiences. I also understand why some others might see these type of experiences as unreliable. Finally, I believe that some never have such experiences to speak of.
This is the biggest reason I have a faith crisis. I tried a few times to get a confirmation of the church being true. In high school I read the whole book of Mormon through by myself, fasted and prayed, and when I came home from school that day I went out into our field behind the barn (lived on a farm) and prayed fully expecting to get an answer. I didn’t get anything at all. But I had read an article about one of the apostles who had a similar thing happen, but then he realized that he had always known it was true so he didn’t need a confirmation. I decided that was true for me too. When I was praying to know if I should marry my husband, I also didn’t get any kind of answer. But I had read an article from somewhere about this woman who also didn’t get an answer if she should get married, but then realized that God wanted her to make the decision, so she did and then later knew it was the right decision. This is what I decided was happening to me. However, I haven’t gotten that confirmation after 10 years of marriage (I hope that doesn’t sound bad, my husband is a good person, but I honestly wonder if marrying him was the “right” thing to do. Some of the problems we’ve had have really made me unsure.)
You can see that my doubt of spiritual experiences was sometimes brushed aside by how someone else explained their lack of feeling the spirit. I hate that I brushed that doubt away, it could have been useful to me then. But now this is why I doubt the church and even if there is a God. I have no way of knowing anything outside of myself and what I can observe. I feel the same feelings watching a touching scene in a movie as I do during a spiritual event. I can’t tell the difference between emotion or the spirit. I think I am at the point where I don’t think there is a difference. I can’t explain other’s experiences where they are sure it was external and from God. Maybe it is something different for them that I don’t get. Or maybe it is all in their heads too. There’s no way to know really, is there.
Oh, I also want to mention that there have been times that I had negative feelings in setting where I should have felt the spirit, like when I first went through the temple or after I got sealed. I felt embarrassed and uncomfortable rather than feeling the spirit confirm to me the truthfulness of the temple. These experience were and continue to be very confusing to me. It’s also why I no longer attend the temple. journeygirl wrote:When I was praying to know if I should marry my husband, I also didn’t get any kind of answer.
When I first prayed about marrying my wife I asked if she was “the” right one for me, and did not receive an answer. I then wondered if I was asking the right question and changed it to “can I have a successful marriage with her?” and felt MUCH better about that question. I guess for me the idea of soul-mates doesn’t make a lot of sense, every couple has differences — or if there was they surely wouldn’t have to pray to know!
Testimony of what? There are so many testimony experiences in life and things we see as validations of conviction that it’s hard to claim a yes or no.
For me I have had 6 uncommon visual spiritual experiences. None of them were prayed for or requested. Each of them found fulfillment. They support my personal conviction that God or Heaven wants to interact in our lives.
My only proof of them belongs to me. Even if I retell them, everyone else has to decide how they interpret them. They can disbelieve me, they can repeat them, and point to them as continuing revelation, or something else. Only I know if I am telling accurate things, only I know if the events that support them happened. For me though, they are an anchor piece in my spirit. Because of them I testify that God reaches beyond the boundaries we give him into mortal men’s lives. I do it in hope of encouraging others to let him in, to look for him, to hope and have a grain of faith.
What my experiences don’t answer is, The Book of Mormon is true (as literal believers list it), it doesn’t tell me that my church is the only true church on the earth, it does not even tell me I am more worthy than any of my mortal siblings. It only tells me that He can communicate in various ways to us.
So yest I do think spiritual experiences can be a foundation, how fully encompassing I do not know.
Great point Mom3. It is so easy for others to dismiss that which only we as individuals experience. It happened to Joseph Smith and it apparently caused him great angst. It is likewise easy for others to dismiss our lack of spiritual experiences and chalk it up to unworthiness, laziness, etc. – “It’s not that simple” (Pres. Uchtdorf). I do agree that God communicates differently and different things to different people, and I believe there are those average, even faithful, people with whom, for whatever reason, he does not communicate with. mom3 wrote:Testimony of what?
There are so many testimony experiences in life and things we see as validations of conviction that it’s hard to claim a yes or no.
For me I have had 6 uncommon visual spiritual experiences. None of them were prayed for or requested. Each of them found fulfillment. They support my personal conviction that God or Heaven wants to interact in our lives.
My only proof of them belongs to me. Even if I retell them, everyone else has to decide how they interpret them. They can disbelieve me, they can repeat them, and point to them as continuing revelation, or something else. Only I know if I am telling accurate things, only I know if the events that support them happened. For me though, they are an anchor piece in my spirit. Because of them I testify that God reaches beyond the boundaries we give him into mortal men’s lives. I do it in hope of encouraging others to let him in, to look for him, to hope and have a grain of faith.
What my experiences don’t answer is, The Book of Mormon is true (as literal believers list it), it doesn’t tell me that my church is the only true church on the earth, it does not even tell me I am more worthy than any of my mortal siblings. It only tells me that He can communicate in various ways to us.
So yest I do think spiritual experiences can be a foundation, how fully encompassing I do not know.
Really loved this entire post!
I have discovered that some Christian churches us the word “testimony” as synonymous for one’s walk with God/Jesus. In a room filled with roughly half church members and half not – we were told that we all have testimonies because God has always been working/striving with us. I hope that this alternate use of the word testimony gains prominance among the LDS.
Testimony has the same root as testament and testify – which are legal terms for an official record and to make an official statement. Thus, a testimony can be about absolutely anything and is nothing more than saying, writing or doing something in an official manner that reflects whatever is said. “I know” – “I believe” – I feel” – “I saw (witnessed)” – “I assume” – etc. all are legitimate forms of testimony – and the only false testimonies are ones that are not consistent with the intent of the person providing it. For example, if a witness in a trial says, “I know . . .” that person is unable to be charged with perjury even if it turns out that they are wrong (meaning they didn’t know what they claimed to know), as long as it is believed that they were sincere in their expression.
Thus, spiritual experiences are a perfectly acceptable foundation for religious testimonies, whether what is believed is true or not, objectively – or, in many cases, inadequate to prove accuracy in an objective way. After all, most people base what they believe on what they feel, to one degree or another.
I haven’t commented much on this board since introducing myself because DW doesn’t appreciate it. But this post really got my attention. This is really the core of my struggle. In the church and especially as missionaries we have a formula for receiving a witness. 1 – Read the book of Mormon
2 – Pray to know if it is true
3 – Receive a powerful feeling from the Holy Ghost
4 – Presto! You have a testimony!
But then we get into shady ground with “if ye shall ask with a sincere heart…”. What does that mean exactly? As a missionary I had a hard time when people didn’t get the answer I promised them. According to the formula they must not have been sincere. And yet I always knew that the formula didn’t really work for me either, and I felt like I had been sincere.
I’m a fan of Math. In math, 1 + 1 = 2. Always, no matter what. Even if you are not sincere. It’s the same for me and you and everyone else on the planet. The answer cannot be 2 for me, but maybe 2.5 for you. It just doesn’t work that way.
But jumping back to Moroni’s promise as well as to other spiritual experiences we often hear (including some mentioned here). I can’t reconcile the fact that I have never had such an experience. It drives me nuts!
I’m not saying that I don’t believe the stories I hear. I have heard them from too many people I respect to just cast them off. I believe there must be something to them. But then I’m still left wondering “why is there nothing for me?” I used to tell myself that eventually it would come. Just keep doing what you’re suppose to do and it will come. I guess my patience is fading.
fnts, all excellent questions and really, really good points you make. And all asked with a very sincere heart, I can tell. fnts wrote:The answer cannot be 2 for me, but maybe 2.5 for you. It just doesn’t work that way.
This is the complexity of finding truth in arenas like religion…it isn’t exactly a science, it isn’t mathematics, or philosophy. What works in other disciplines just doesn’t seem to always work in religion, because you don’t really have repeatable experiences.
So much of it involves faith, and some things go beyond this world or this life…so that is so hard to nail down exactly what that is for all of us different individuals here and now. Fact is…we just don’t know some things. We may never know in this life. Can we embrace paradox?
Think of the story where crickets take over the harvest, and the Saints plead with the Lord…and miracle…sea gulls save the day! Praise the Lord!
Next year…did you every hear about that story? Crickets came again. Saints prayed. No sea gulls. Harvest lost. (I’d have to find a source to accurately quote it, but that was the gist of what I read). Why does it work sometimes and not others? Why to some people and not others? Why is it taught the way it is (cause it frustrates me and I feel bad when my expectations are blown)?
So how do we trust the Lord? What about guarantees and promises and “I, the Lord, am bound when you do what I say”?
If you can get your hands on Lowell Bennion’s book “Religion and the Pursuit of Truth” (1968), I recommend it. It is a nice read.
But clearly, from my experience, there are no simple answers. Many conference talks try to address the problem of learning to recognize answers to prayers, but really it becomes a very personal journey. And sometimes the hardest questions to answer are the ones when you get no answer…and what does that mean? It is a journey to figure it out, and to put meaning, and to decide what to do with it.
I’m sorry to hear you’ve struggled with it. I hope you can keep posting and sharing ideas as we discuss it.
Fwiw, the actual wording of those verses from Moroni say absolutely NOTHING about “how” any person will know anything, except that it will be through the power of God. That’s vague enough to mean just about anything – and I believe passionately that one of the worst things we do in our missionary work is take one person’s answer (Oliver Cowdery’s burning in the bosom and stupor of thought) and force others to have that same experience in order to believe. It’s not what the actual statement says, and it just doesn’t work for everyone. Old-Timer wrote:I believe passionately that one of the worst things we do in our missionary work is take one person’s answer (Oliver Cowdery’s burning in the bosom and stupor of thought) and force others to have that same experience in order to believe.
In my mission we took Galations 5:22 out of context to tell people that “good feelings” in their heart will confirm the truth. That may work for some but it sure wasn’t wat Galations 5 was talking about.
I could spend days explaining my interpretation of Moroni’s promise. I try not to run and scream every time I hear it used the way we do in church. I can’t even find how it got started this way. When I read it – This is what I hear/read. Beginning with verse 3 “…when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that you should read them (
maybe not everyone gets to read them), That you would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these thingsand ponder it (God’s mercy unto the children of men) in your hearts.Verse 4 – And when ye shall receive these things (The Book of Mormon and the reflections of God’s merciful history with man), I would exhort you that ye would ask God, The Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things (
God’s mercy again)are not true; Then the promise – And if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith (hope) in Christ. He will manifest the truth of it (
His mercy unto the children of men) unto you by the power of the Holy Ghost. ( The same Holy Ghost who works individually with each of us. When I read the promise this way – I do see a truth, I look back the scriptural history we have and see God’s efforts in all of our lives. I know my position can be debated. I know horrible things have happened, will happen, and do happen. But the most merciful gift he gave us was life – or a chance to try. From there it looks as if the eternal struggle of agency is in play no matter, who, what or why is going on.
This is also why I believe in my spiritual experiences so deeply. They came to me from unexpected places. My siblings have never had the types of experiences I have had, or if they have, they have never shared them (not that they need to or should). I only say that to present the idea that there are myriad ways of knowing the truth of God’s mercy toward mankind.
mom3, that is exactly how I read those verses – and I believe we skip too much over the foundation in verse 3 to get to our incorrect reading of verse 4. I wrote the following back in April 2010:
“
We Need to Teach the Actual Promise in Moroni 10:4” ( http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2010/04/we-need-to-teach-actual-promise-in.html
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