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Heber13 wrote:
MNG, what did you come up with for telling yourself what it means when the blessing didn’t come to pass? How does your dad view it?
Sorry for the late response, Heber, we went on vacation and this thread got lost in the shuffle during the couple of weeks we were on the road.
In the particular situation SD referred to in the OP, my dad and I never really came up with a satisfying response. However, we’ve both had enough powerful spiritual experiences that we’ve accepted we’ll one day understand why things happened as they did.
Generally speaking, unless I experience an independent spiritual confirmation of what is being said in the blessing, I take it with a grain of salt.
mercyngrace wrote:Heber13 wrote:Generally speaking, unless I experience an independent spiritual confirmation of what is being said in the blessing, I take it with a grain of salt.
I also take it with a grain of salt even when I have a confirmation now. I’ve had confirmations that have turned out REALLY BADLY — undeniable confirmations. So, I’m at the point I’m not sure if thy are simply neuro-chemical reactions, or true divine communication.
I heard a secular speaker a while ago speak. She was raised in Zimbabwe, poor, married off at 12 years of age, had 3 kids by the time she was 18. Made it to America and got a PhD, along with her eventual 5 kids as a single mother. Ate food out of a dumster at times, lived in a trailer, worked three jobs to pay for school while raising the kids.
She made one comment I found resonating during her talk.
Quote:“I must believe in human nature or I become cynical.”
I relate this to spiritual confirmations:
Quote:“I must believe in spiritual confirmations or I become cynical.”
Similarily, I take a min-max regret approach (from management decision-making). As far as truth-of-spiritual experiences go, there are two possible scenarios. First, the spiritual experiences I’ve had turn out to be false when we have greater knowledge in the next life. Second, the spiritual experiences I’ve had turn out to be true, divine communiation.
The consequences of NOT believing in spiritual experiences which eventually are proven true, are worse than believing in spiritual experiences that are eventually proven false in the next life.
I think God will have no leg to stand on if He criticizes me for believing too firmly in false spiritual experiences when there was no other acceptable, undeniable way of determining truth. However, given the strong impression spiritual experiences make, I think he will be able to criticize me pretty handily for not maintaining some belief in spiritual experiences which have been very powerful, and are eventually proven to be true.
SD, I have had confirmations that turned out extraordinarily badly in the short term (anywhere from 6 months to years) but that I ultimately came to see provided blessings of an eternal nature that were worth all the pain.
For the purpose of illustration, I’ll share some details about 3 different close friends all of whom WITHOUT EXCEPTION have expressed two striking sentiments: (1) that they became acquainted with God in their extremities and (2) they could have come to know Him as they now do, in no other way.
The first is a man who lost his 12 year old daughter, and nearly his whole family, in a tragic car accident.
The second, is a woman who struggled in a marriage with a chronically depressed husband who became addicted to pornography.
The third, is a man who was nearly lost his wife and children after committing a crime that landed him in prison for half a decade.
Each of these people received spiritual confirmations about their situations that seemed to go unfulfilled (or worse) for long stretches of time but each of them held on to what they felt was true and have been blessed beyond measure for it, per their own telling. And the really interesting thing is that their trials haven’t stopped but none of them seem burdened in the least.
The testimonies of these people, not to mention my own experiences, give me hope even when such hope seems impossible to justify.
This is what sent me into my agnostic ways. To often I got answers to prayers that were wrong or misleading. I decided I was not going to set myself up for disappointment anymore. I do not ask God for specific things anymore. It is an exercise in futility for me. I think it is disingenuous of the church to promote that people can receive blessings or guidance when they really do not. It is harmful to give hope when reality is coming around the corner with a vengeance.
I realized the futility of healing s when I read an article that proposed God hates amputees. The premise being that God can heal internal injuries or things that can not obviously be seen, yet you never hear of an arm or leg growing back. No one would have the faith to command that an arm grow back yet we easily accept that a hidden disease can be cured. Why, what is the difference? There is no difference other that when an internal injury heals over time we can claim it was God.
Quote:“I think it is disingenuous of the church to promote that people can receive blessings or guidance when they really do not.”
I would change that to:
Quote:“It is incorrect and damaging to promote that ANYONE can receive particular blessings or guidance in ANY situation if only their faith is strong enough.”
Those who make those statements generally believe them, because they have received blessings and guidance when they needed them (so it’s not “disingenuous”), but it just isn’t accurate for everyone in all situations – or even, imo, for some people at all (or, at the very least, in a way they can reccognize as coming from God). I have had VERY strong experiences that convince me we can receive blessings and guidance, but I also know people who have never had a single experience like mine – and I have no idea whatsoever why that is. Again, it’s the teaching of an extreme position that bothers me – not the teaching of possibilities.
Fwiw, the most recent talk in General Conference about formal Priesthood blessings only coming to pass if the words actually reflect God’s will probably was given as a direct result of the kind of statements you are addressing, Cadence.
Old-Timer wrote:Quote:“I think it is disingenuous of the church to promote that people can receive blessings or guidance when they really do not.”
I would change that to:
Quote:“It is incorrect and damaging to promote that ANYONE can receive particular blessings or guidance in ANY situation if only their faith is strong enough.”
Those who make those statements generally believe them, because they have received blessings and guidance when they needed them (so it’s not “disingenuous”), but it just isn’t accurate for everyone in all situations – or even, imo, for some people at all (or, at the very least, in a way they can reccognize as coming from God). I have had VERY strong experiences that convince me we can receive blessings and guidance, but I also know people who have never had a single experience like mine – and I have no idea whatsoever why that is. Again, it’s the teaching of an extreme position that bothers me – not the teaching of possibilities.
Fwiw, the most recent talk in General Conference about formal Priesthood blessings only coming to pass if the words actually reflect God’s will probably was given as a direct result of the kind of statements you are addressing, Cadence.
Ray I think your statement is better.
I would take exception to the teaching that blessings only come to pass if it is Gods will. This is a cop out to me to have cover when things do not work out as promised.. What good is the priest hood if it has no real power. If it is all up to God anyway just let him to all the work. How are we to know what Gods will is? It becomes a guessing game to try and understand what Gods will is.
Cadence wrote:How are we to know what Gods will is?
Good question.
If we take the example of the Brother of Jared, that may provide a reference point for this discussion.
When I look at that account in the Book of Mormon, what could we say about the Will of God?
1. God’s will was to light the ships with crystals, and Brother of Jared had to guess correctly the exact method which was God’s will for it to come to pass. If he chose to have lightening bugs be used, God would not have let that happen, and then the Brother of Jared would have learned that he chose incorrectly.
[This implies God has a plan, and we must tap into it]2. God doesn’t have specific plans, and because Brother of Jared held the priesthood, he could have asked the Lord anything and that would have worked. If there is no faithful person to request something, it is left to chance or the random universe.
[This implies God doesn’t have specific plans, so anything can be done if asked for by righteous people]3. God let Brother of Jared be part of the process, and as long as what he was asking fits into God’s plan, God will allow it. Should Brother of Jared ask something contrary to the plans God has, or something God knew would not work, He would make it known by allowing it to fail or by making a warning manifest.
[This implies God has plans, but allows His Children to have input as long as it compliments His plans]. In all these situations, the Spirit could lead us to know what to do, right?
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