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I’ve talked about my faith crisis with my TBM parents and one of my TBM roommates. My parents have been understanding and encouraging, but there may be some friction with my TBM roommates. When I discuss the Church and religion with my parents and roommates, they have the typical Stage 3 answers to the hard questions in life. In a way it’s fascinating to me that these answers are good enough for many people and used to be good enough for me, but there came a point in my life where these answers are no longer good enough for me. It’s strange and even embarrassing to me that such intelligent and thoughtful people could accept answers that are, quite frankly, egocentric and arrogant. I’ll give one example of the kind of answer I’m talking about: Question:Why would God answer my prayer to remove a stain from my favorite shirt while leaving the prayers of the parents of the thousands of children who will die today unanswered? Stage 3 Answer:God loves you and has a plan for you, so he will answer your prayers. Those children who die are going to a better place, so we don’t need to worry about them. Maybe those children and their parents were less valiant in the pre-mortal life. My response:If people go to a better place when they die, does that mean that people are better off dead and that God would do humanity a huge favor by just killing everyone? And what about the parents of those dead children who will spend the rest of their lives longing for their lost child? And who would tell a parent whose child had just died that God ignored their prayer because they were less valiant in the pre-mortal life? Stage 3 answers work for me as long as I maintain the egocentric view that God loves me more than other people and cares about my success more than other peoples’ success. But as soon as I consider things from someone else’s point of view or take a closer look at the facts, these answers fall apart.
So how do you deal with people who accept and believe these kinds of answers? I’m not going to try to debate my parents and roommates and try to bury their worldview with logic. I want to maintain a good relationship with them, so I just have to make vague general statements about my faith crisis, which may give them the impression that I don’t have any good reasons to lose traditional faith.
So what do you think of these Stage 3 answers, and how do you deal with friends and family members who believe them?
This isn’t an answer, just an observation. When you point out circular logic or glaring inconsistencies, you eventually get to one of two responses: admitting we don’t really know and backing down on confidence or attacking the questioner. If your friends and parents are genuinely satisfied with Level 3 answers (and I think you should take them at their word that they are), and those answers bring them solace and comfort during times of distress, then I wouldn’t take that away from them. On the other hand, those same answers aren’t satisfying and comforting to you – you’ll have to go deeper to find reason and basis in expressions of God’s love for mankind. The analogy I’d give is this: if I want an oil change in my car, I go to Jiffy Lube, not Burger King, because I know Burger King (no matter how delicious a Whopper might be) just can’t give me a decent oil change. So if you’re asking questions that are not being answered to your satisfaction by your parents and friends, go somewhere with a higher likelihood of having answers that are satisfying and make sense to you. That’s not to say that your parents and friends can’t play ANY role in your search – sometimes you may just need someone to listen to you without judgment; someone who actually knows you rather than an anonymous troll on a message board (irony intended). But if you’re looking for Stage 5 answers, dont’ shop in a Stage 3 store. Just my $.02.
I think there is a moral dilemma in discussing faith issues or questions with someone who isn’t ready. On one hand, authenticity demands a degree of honesty, on the other, we do great harm when we push people into faith crisis.
I had to deal with months of serious issues with one of my daughters when I merely said that I do not take church stuff literally. She wasn’t ready, yet I hate to see her going through the mental gymnastics it takes to justify the crap.
Only one guiding principle applies: absolute, unconditional love. In love, I realize how very slowly and carefully I must move in expressing faith issues.
I respect that different answers work for different people. If I want them to accept that my perspective is right for me, even when they disagree with me, I have to be willing to accept that their answers are right for them, even when I disagree with them. It’s that pesky Golden Rule.
Probably the single most powerful change beyond Synthetic-Conventional faith (Stage 3) is the new ability to view our faith from an outside perspective. It’s often a total game changer. Those old answers that wrapped things up into a nice neat package of consistency unravel before our eyes. They no longer satisfy. We start to examine our beliefs outside of our self, and start to follow all the connections to their conclusions using our new personal “spotlight of truth,” like an obsession with fact checking. Unfortunately, many of our former beliefs unravel or morph into new shapes. They have to. We aren’t functioning the same way anymore. In Stage 3, people begin to build a “story of stories,” acknowledging that others outside our group believe differently, but even that has to fit into a story within their faith content (religious narrative). In Mormonism, the typical “story of stories” is that we have special access to forgotten truths (a restoration), and others don’t see how true our truth is because they are being blinded by the power of Satan. That’s why they don’t believe the same way we do.
It’s a very tough perspective to deal with because anything that challenges or even questions the ideas of the group evokes a level of fear response, a feeling of being attacked by a supernatural evil.
How do you work with those people once you jump out of the fish tank and can now see the water? Hawkgrrrl gave classic advice: the person with the greater knowledge has the greater responsibility.
Ray was also right: that which you sow, so shall you reap. Give acceptance and tolerance to receive acceptance and tolerance. Keeping that in mind while communicating with others is effective. The Golden Rule. It’s a classic.
I agree with Wayfarer too: unconditional love and patience. Be happy and confident. Don’t depend on others validating you for your emotional well being. Love them first, even if they don’t love you back immediately. Be humble and willing to give them room to function in their faith.
Lot’s of great responses on this thread. I had my faith transition in the 90’s. I have many faithful family members and friends. What has worked for me is to say, simply, that I’m no longer a believer. Anything beyond that would be proselyting, and I don’t do that anymore. I make it clear to my family and friends that I respect their beliefs… and I celebrate their missions, temple marriages, baptisms, and ordinations with them.
One thing that happens when our loved-ones find out that we no longer believe everything, is that they take a deep breath and wonder if (or assume that) we will dive off the deep end… leave our spouses, abandon our children, get tattooed, rob banks, become hookers, write books against the church, and vote for democrats. It’s a concern based on their love for us, coupled with their faith in the church. IMO, the most important response is not to justify why, but rather show through our actions that we are still the good people the church saw in us when we were all-in.
You know what they say about religion and politics. Some discussions will never be productive, the best thing we can do is be polite and just let the topics go. That also goes for explaining your faith crisis. It is a difficult situation when you only want to be understood, because often those closest to you are not capable of understanding what you are going through at the level that would be helpful to you. Efforts to open their eyes to your issues will only make things worse. Often the best that you can do is assure them you are doing everything you can to cultivate charity, sound morals, follow truth, etc.
Some common ground you can express may be the divine plan of agency, being tasked with “study it out in your mind” before seeking confirmation, and the general Mormon theme of seeking (Joseph Smith’s example and the 13th article of faith).
hawkgrrrl wrote:When you point out circular logic or glaring inconsistencies, you eventually get to one of two responses: admitting we don’t really know and backing down on confidence or attacking the questioner.
This is exactly what happens. I haven’t had too many discussions with my friends and family on troubling issues, but when I have, if I end up on the intellectual high ground, the other person just says “I don’t know” or says “I don’t understand why you’re being anti-Mormon.” The “I don’t know” answer (or sometimes really stretched explanations) also happen in institute classes. A personal pet peave of mine is when people condemn or dismiss a question that they don’t know the answer to by saying that such questions shouldn’t be asked. In a related example, I think (and you may disagree) that asking the Q12 and FP if they’ve seen Jesus is a perfectly appropriate question given that the Apostles in the NT publicly declared that they’d seen the resurrected Jesus and given the demanding nature of the Mormon faith.
wayfarer wrote:On one hand, authenticity demands a degree of honesty, on the other, we do great harm when we push people into faith crisis.
Other people have made related comments to this idea. My approach has been and will continue to be that if my friends and family are happy with the Church and happy with the Stage 3 answers, I’m not going to ruin it for them. It often takes a significant personal event or series of events to cause someone to question their Stage 3 worldview, and until they’ve had that, they are often incorrigible in rational discussions about tough issues. Some people (such as Sam Harris) believe that the only way to bring about a better world is to rid humanity of superstition. I think that there is some merit to this thinking, but I don’t intend to try to do that with my immediate associates.Brian Johnston wrote:It’s a very tough perspective to deal with because anything that challenges or even questions the ideas of the group evokes a level of fear response, a feeling of being attacked by a supernatural evil.
Fortunately, there is no good evidence that Satan is a literal person and hell is a literal place, so at this point I can’t say that I believe in them. But it’s hard to convince someone else that they are just superstition.I am concerned that if I don’t give sufficient logical justification for my faith crisis, others will say that my faith has faltered because I’ve sinned or want to sin, which is not the case.
Additionally, people would be threatened by someone in a faith crisis because it demonstrates that “apostasy” can happen to anyone.
My roommate will probably ask me again soon how things are going with my faith crisis and if I’m reading the BofM and GC talks. I’m inclined to start yimmering on about the Book of Abraham and about polyandry and the BoM anachronisms, but I’m not sure that would be wise. What would be a wise response?
Quote:“I’m working on it and doing the best I can. Thank you for caring enough to ask.”
Then, with a great big grin
😆 , add,Quote:“but please don’t push or pressure me about it. It’s hard enough to work through even without that sort of pressure.”
InquiringMind wrote:I am concerned that if I don’t give sufficient logical justification for my faith crisis, others will say that my faith has faltered because I’ve sinned or want to sin, which is not the case.
Yep, that’s a common response, and one that sucks. But it doesn’t justify attacking the beliefs of others. Simply explain that this isn’t brought on by sin, and you aren’t turning to the dark side… that you support their belief, but that you are no longer fully in… or in at all, depending on your position. No more than that needs to be said. I’ve even declined the direct requests to talk about specific issues. In large part I do that because it isn’t about “specific issues” that can be dismissed by answers from FARMS. I don’t want to hear their answers, so there would be no positive outcome from an exposition about what is wrong with the church. After all, you don’t define yourself and your life as opposition to the Book of Abraham and polyandry. So, don’t define yourself to others in those terms. You are still a good person (assuming here). Tell your roommate that you hope your friendship isn’t based on a religious test. Tell your family you still love them. I can guarantee you that you won’t experience anything but loss if you are constantly on the defensive (or offensive) with your loved ones.If you feel that you have to say something, then focus on positive things that you find by broadening your views, such as acceptance of same-sex marriage or an openness with the idea that there is more than one way to approach God, or how you find much good in the world in things that are not specific to the church, etc. Here you have to be careful to avoid appearing smug and superior because of your better beliefs. The key, again, is to allow that others are still true believers, and to accept that that is OK.
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