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OK. So I have just finished listening to the podcast of Fowlers stages on the Mormon Expression website (episode 25). http://mormonexpression.com/?p=315 And in finishing this podcast I have lots of thoughts that I am not sure I can quite articulate yet, but I am going to give it a disjointed try. You may need you own seer stone to understand all my gibbrish.
I am trying to understand if you all see the stages of faith as being a progression of becoming more and more spiritually evolved or is it just a model to explain what people do inside of this big faith amusement park. It seems like I assumed that stage 4 was “better” or more evolved than stage 3. But it seems this might not be the case.
I guess I am wondering if one can go thru the stages of faith without becoming an apostate. I mean, is apostasy necessary? The one guy said something about how leaving the church or staying is irrelevant to stage 4. Yet, I am going to admit that I feel a little pressure here on this site to go the apostate direction….as if that direction is
betterthan someone working thru stage 4 within context of the church and within maintaining the required behaviors. I sometimes feel that this later behavior is sometimes poopooed and labeled as TBM blindness. I am also wondering if there isn’t already built into the gospel (not that everyone sees this all the time) a progression that is similar to the stages of faith but really more about the evolution of the person or the soul . I mean if the behaviors of stage 3 and 5 look the same but with a much different internal process driving them, it would seem to me that this might be part of what the scriptures are trying to help us to understand about spiritual learning (IE waxing, line upon line, grace for grace, repentance….etc). And I guess I am wondering if elements of 6 and 7 are part of that. Maybe what I am wondering is if the stages of faith might be a partial description or observation of part of a bigger plan for ones development — one that God has understood from the beginning and one that has driven the plan of salvation from its inception. Meaning to become like God and use faith like God does (IE. to create worlds and eternal increase and stuff like that.)
I am also struggling with dealing with this “internal sense of authority” thing because I can really relate to that right now as that seems to be what has happened inside of me. Part of me thinks that this is part of the progression God wants us to find and learn to weild. And I wonder if the stage 3 stuff is an important foundation for learning to find and then properly use ones agency. The scripture “without compulsory means” comes to mind. But there is a disconnect for me with regards to changes within the church or changing the mind of God to fit the new enlightenment of my mind or what I want to believe, do, etc. I feel like its a danger zone I guess because “my will ” and “God’s will” feel like they are at odds. Or it feels like using a sword. It would be very easy to use it correctly and with skill or to use it for destructive or frivolous purposes. It seems to me that the spirit of the law and the letter of the law are at war with each other when they don’t really need to be. I think God wants us to awaken to this place inside but then learn what to do with it next in terms of obedience and I guess that I see the obedience as increasing in quality as one learns these lessons. But if one is advancing in the stages of faith but not inside of obedience, that seems to be problematic as I try to square it all with my understanding of what exhaltation and eternal progression really is. I guess this whole train of thought brings me back to the scriptures with their lessons about rebellion and the ideas of the natural man etc etc. Progression is powerful and rebellion is too. But they have very different destinations.
I was also tickled that one of the people referred to the liahona vs. iron rod approach to obedience. I felt like they understood what I was trying to say on another thread.
Quote:I am trying to understand if you all see the stages of faith as being a progression of becoming more and more spiritually evolved or is it just a model to explain what people do inside of this big faith amusement park.
Fowler’s model is descriptive, IMO. It’s not a real “progression” because not all go through all stages.
Quote:It seems like I assumed that stage 4 was “better” or more evolved than stage 3. But it seems this might not be the case.
I would say definitely not. That’s like saying someone with a mid-life crisis is more evolved than someone in their early 30s. Or that a rebellious teen is more evolved than a trusting child. But that doesn’t mean that it’s not inevitable for some to go through Stage 4. Personally, I think it’s just the path that some must go in life to find their way. Being stage 3 my whole life just doesn’t fit me. I’m not that kind of person. Stage 5 is certainly healthier than Stage 4 (and should probably be a goal for someone in Stage 4), but I think it’s hard to call Stage 4 better than Stage 3. Many people can live a great and happy life entirely in Stage 3. We tend to think of our own way as the best one because for us it might be the only way we have. But it’s important to realize that not everyone is the same, and we aren’t better or worse for that. We just have unique needs.
Quote:I guess I am wondering if one can go thru the stages of faith without becoming an apostate.
Yes, it is possible, and I believe it is the ideal.Quote:I am going to admit that I feel a little pressure here on this site to go the apostate direction….as if that direction is better than someone working thru stage 4 within context of the church and within maintaining the required behaviors.
I’m sorry and sad to read this. It certainly isn’t the attitude or belief of any of the admins and moderators. Personally, most people who know me at church view me as mainstream Mormon in every way that matters – probably because that’s how I view myself. My opinions and perspectives are one thing; my observable life is another. I am totally at peace with that.
Quote:I am also wondering if there isn’t already built into the gospel (not that everyone sees this all the time) a progression that is similar to the stages of faith but really more about the evolution of the person or the soul . I mean if the behaviors of stage 3 and 5 look the same but with a much different internal process driving them, it would seem to me that this might be part of what the scriptures are trying to help us to understand about spiritual learning (IE waxing, line upon line, grace for grace, repentance….etc). And I guess I am wondering if elements of 6 and 7 are part of that. Maybe what I am wondering is if the stages of faith might be a partial description or observation of part of a bigger plan for ones development.
That largely is how I see it. If you want my attempt to address this (kind of) in one post, read the following:“An Interesting Epiphany: Thank You to Everyone Who Has Commented on My Blog” (
http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2009/09/interesting-epiphany-thank-you-to.html I’ve got to say again, you really inspire me, Poppy! Thanks for being so honest and engaging these issues here. These discussions are so helpful to me from every angle, mental, emotional, spiritual. I have nothing to say, except welcome to stage 4! It’s pretty gnarly sometimes. Don’t give up!
Poppyseed wrote:I am trying to understand if you all see the stages of faith as being a progression of becoming more and more spiritually evolved or is it just a model to explain what people do inside of this big faith amusement park. It seems like I assumed that stage 4 was “better” or more evolved than stage 3. But it seems this might not be the case.
One of the key problems of a “developmental” theory applied to religious faith, and I think Mormonism in particular due to its theology of degrees of salvation/exaltation, is the implication that a person must evolve along the stages. To not evolve (again, especially in Mormonism), is to admit someone is somehow defective or not getting the best afterlife “prize.” Mormonism is all about evolving.
Within Fowler’s Stage theory, you would pretty much have to pass through lower stages to get to higher-numbered stages, but that doesn’t necessarily make someone a better or more advanced soul. Stages don’t equal levels of enlightenment or righteousness. I think the only thing you could say is that a higher stage person probably has a broader viewpoint. That doesn’t make it better, or even more functionally useful on a very practical level.
Who is better? A happy, well-adjusted Stage 3 person in a healthy, positive and nurturing faith community? Or a detached, wishy-washy, unengaged Stage 5 person who spends more time sitting alone thinking about “the system” in a congregation that is falling apart organizationally? That isn’t to say those are the only ways those stages are expressed. I am pushing two extreme opposites so I can make an example of a Stage 3 person being “better off” than a Stage 5 person.
One stage is not better than another. They are each exactly right for the person until they feel a need to change. I think some people are just plain hardwired with an internal need to hit higher stages. They have to do it. They just aren’t satisfied staying still. If you are here at this forum, you likely are one of these people. A person can’t really even really grasp this stuff without some capacity to see faith as a system with symbols (Stage 3+).
Poppyseed wrote:I guess I am wondering if one can go thru the stages of faith without becoming an apostate. I mean, is apostasy necessary? The one guy said something about how leaving the church or staying is irrelevant to stage 4. Yet, I am going to admit that I feel a little pressure here on this site to go the apostate direction….as if that direction is
betterthan someone working thru stage 4 within context of the church and within maintaining the required behaviors. I sometimes feel that this later behavior is sometimes poopooed and labeled as TBM blindness. Like Ray, this comment (a very valid one) hits me hard in the gut. We often ask ourselves this type of question in a soul-searching way. We agonize over it. Are we helping people? Or are we pushing people out? We hope that people here find the site to be positive towards the Church. All the admins and moderators love the Church (in their own ways), and want people to be successful and happy in it.
Looking back, I personally think I spent a very long time in a stage 4 mode in the Church, while remaining a relatively happy member. I have never been angry at the Church or felt that I had to leave in order to be an honest person, in spite of my doubts and disagreements. I’ve had a positive and uplifting experience as a member. But I can think back a good 25+ years to when I was a teenager. I started even then to question ideas, and not really feel beholden to approval of my Church community. In fact, I remember many times observing that “approved,” clean cut young men were up blessing and passing the sacrament, ones that I had seen at the wild parties my goth band had played at that same weekend. Yet I was the one parents at Church told their daughters not to date because I looked weird on the outside. I also used to have a fun time debating things with my seminary teachers in the morning (being bored out of my mind), like arguing that Satan couldn’t exist based on the logic in the story about the plan of salvation. My argument was that a “smart” and logical Satan would choose to do nothing, not tempt anyone, and thus win the game and get his way. Seeing that he didn’t, it must be a fictional story. Aren’t I a stinker?
😈 Anyway… I think back over the years and see myself having done a lot of things my own way for a long time. I also had a habit of pulling things apart to see how they ticked, feeling compelled to ask the next questions. Those were just a few small examples. I went through this in a pretty quiet way without a lot of turmoil. I don’t consider myself an apostate. I love the Church and want it to be successful in its purposes. I often don’t agree with things or see them the same way (seldom see things the same), but an apostate is someone who harbors ill-will or wants to harm a church (consciously or unconsciously).I think others go through this transformation past Stage 3 too. It’s can be a quiet transition. We’re there, just not making a lot of noise about it.
Poppyseed wrote:I am also struggling with dealing with this “internal sense of authority” … [snip] … I feel like its a danger zone I guess because “my will ” and “God’s will” feel like they are at odds. Or it feels like using a sword. It would be very easy to use it correctly and with skill or to use it for destructive or frivolous purposes. It seems to me that the spirit of the law and the letter of the law are at war with each other when they don’t really need to be. I think God wants us to awaken to this place inside but then learn what to do with it next in terms of obedience and I guess that I see the obedience as increasing in quality as one learns these lessons. But if one is advancing in the stages of faith but not inside of obedience, that seems to be problematic as I try to square it all with my understanding of what exaltation and eternal progression really is. I guess this whole train of thought brings me back to the scriptures with their lessons about rebellion and the ideas of the natural man etc etc. Progression is powerful and rebellion is too. But they have very different destinations.
Welcome to the paradox of life and faith. We must obey, but we don’t understand obedience. God wants us to chose, but we might make a mistake. Sometimes the law conflicts with the spirit. Sometimes the law conflicts with the law. We are spiritual beings experiencing a physical reality. A good God created a world with opposites, both good and evil, pleasure and pain. How can this be? We don’t know, but we experience it every day.
Quote:I was also tickled that one of the people referred to the liahona vs. iron rod approach to obedience. I felt like they understood what I was trying to say on another thread.
I personally think that analogy describes personality types and not Stage types. It isn’t a good correlation to say that Stage 3 = Iron Rod and Stage 4 = Liahona type Mormons. I think that was sort of implied in the podcast, but I disagree.
I have not felt that StayLDS encourages someone to fall into apostasy or even to go against the rules of the church. In fact, I have regularly felt like StayLDS puts pressure on people to not do such things. At times I have felt that StayLDS is a less friendly place for the Stage 4 people than for the Stage 5 people. But I think it is useful for the Stage 4 person to have their black and white view of faith (mostly black in the “dark night of the soul”) challenged to avoid becoming too complacent. Besides, I can always post at NOM if I want my Stage 4 tendencies reinforced and validated 
Stage 5 seems to find new, and even brighter and greater truth in the paradoxes. I liked how the podcast described Stage 4 as the fish has leapt out of the fishbowl. In Stage 4 the person sees the symbol as a symbol and thus the symbol becomes dead. That is where I am at. Concepts like apostasy, obedience, letter of the law, spirit of the law, eternal progression, to me these all seem to be dead symbols. Indeed, the night is very dark.
However, I don’t think that there is any specific action that someone must do to progress through the stages. I don’t think someone has to stop attending church, stop paying tithing, start breaking the word of wisdom, or anything else in order to progress through the stages. As all of the symbols have become dead to me, I don’t think it really bothers me to no longer do the things I believed were so important in Stage 3, as I no longer find they have any meaning (I look forward to and anticipate Stage 5 where they will regain a new and higher meaning that is more beautiful than I could ever imagine possible in Stage 3). However, I can think of lots of reasons why some people would continue doing these things and I do not think that will inhibit their progression through the Stages of Faith.
I do wonder if someone needs to abandon the concept of obedience to progress through the stages of faith? Stage 4 is about individuative-reflexive faith, where Stage 3 is Synthetic-Conventional faith. Stage 3 is about conformity, but Stage 4 and beyond are very personal journeys. To be individuative and reflexive, I think one may need to stop worry about conforming to an outside force. What do others think?
Quote:I do wonder if someone needs to abandon the concept of obedience to progress through the stages of faith? Stage 4 is about individuative-reflexive faith, where Stage 3 is Synthetic-Conventional faith. Stage 3 is about conformity, but Stage 4 and beyond are very personal journeys. To be individuative and reflexive, I think one may need to stop worry about conforming to an outside force. What do others think?
That is funny you should put it that way because I have been thinking something similar. It’s not that obedience needs to be abandoned, per se, just transcended. Looking at the Mormon concept of theosis – can one really “obey” one’s way into godhood? Seems a little lemming-like to be able to do the trick. I’m not saying anything anti-obedience, just that it’s not the point. It’s not the pinnacle of spirituality to do what you are told. I’m sure many have realized this on their own, but following the 80/20 principle, they seem to fall in the 20% rather than the 80% based on comments in talks and lessons.
Fwiw, whenever someone wants to “become” something better than they are – whenever they want to “progress”, that always involves “obedience” to some rule or law or practice or discipline. For example, nobody is “naturally” a professional athlete. Many are naturally gifted athletically, but that just isn’t enough to play professionally. Even great athletes crash and burn if they aren’t willing to learn the craft and do the work and endure the conditioning that is a requisite of being a professional – and especially playing long enough to reach a Hall of Fame.
I believe strongly that obedience really is the foundation of growth and progression. The real question to me is not the principle of obedience but rather the focus of obedience – the nature of that to which I choose to be obedient. That has to be a personal choice (exactly what we obey / follow); obedience as a general principle doesn’t have to be. To me, that principle is immutable and eternal and universal – and I think that’s the point of the famous verses that teach a general principle, not a justification for ALL conceivable rules and regulations.
I feel somehow obligated to comment on this thread – don’t know why. I am so sad Poppy that you feel you have been pushed toward apostasy on this site. I hope I have not contributed to that. Although I suppose that the definition of apostasy could vary wildly from person to person. I would definitely say that if some TBMs knew my views they would probably consider me an apostate (despite the fact that I renewed my TR yesterday). But I know apostates who consider me an apologist, so I take it all with a grain of salt.
The stages of faith are not a goal, a progression, or a religion. It is not a path to enlightenment. It is science. That is, it is a description of a common phenomenon that occurs in
manypeople (not all). Doesn’t make it true, false, or anything else – it’s just a description albeit a very useful one. It is an important observation that much within the scriptures are designed to lead us to a stage 5-like mentality. I cannot speak for Ray, but my impression after reading about his life (at some cursory overview) is that he naturally is predisposed to a stage 5 mentality due to his ability to parse and discern. I’m sure he has had tough experiences, and doubts, but my impression is that he naturally gravitated toward stage 5, possibly without a stage 4 meltdown (please correct me if I’m out of line Ray). Consider his post
hereMyself on the other hand, was predisposed to continue in stage 3
untilI was knocked off my tower by a strong dose of reality. However, I also have been blessed with some level of discernment, and have wisdom enough to listen to those who have gone before me (I always have been this way). Although I seriously question authority, I recognize good wisdom when I encounter it. Therefore, I moved through stage 4 in about 6-9 months thanks to some wonderful mentors. There are moments where I feel my foot go back into stage 4, but a few minutes in meditation, or on this site and I can bounce back. We all have different skill sets, strengths, and weaknesses. I know that some will move to stage 5 by
truly understanding and applyingthe injunctions of the Savior, Buddha, and/or many other sages in our history. But these kinds of people are not in the majority IMHO. Most of us require a major setback of some kind to give us the needed perspective. I also don’t want to give the impression that a stage 5
mentalityis on par with a stage 3 mentality. The mentality described by stage 3 thinking, to me, does not lend itself to the attitudes that need to be in place to become more like God. Stage 5 mentality sees the world as a complex system fraught with problems, realizing there are very few absolutes. Stage 3 focuses on obedience, and sees the world through the lens of their belief system. I know people that I would probably classify as Stage 3 who have pieces of their attitude in stage 5. The real trick seems to be when something conflicts with their cherished belief system. Rather than being willing to challenge their belief structure they quickly retreat to security. The problem with this mentality is that while the principles of the belief structure may be true, there is no personal growth. Really there are two ways to look at the stages. If one looks at them simply as a description, it is easy to conclude that one is not better than the other – just different. However, if one looks at the characteristics describing the mentality of individuals in the various stages, it is easy to conclude that the characteristics of a stage 5 or 6 individual lend themselves to more happiness, peace, and growth in this life. I think this is eloquently shown in
The Happiness Hypothesisby Jonathan Haidt. For example, one characteristic of the mentality of stage 3 is either/or thinking. Any CBT class aptly demonstrates the fallacy in this thinking and that it does not bring happiness. Ask any depressed person 
BTW, Ray, I loved your comment on obedience. Brilliant!
One more thought on obedience and the either/or way of thinking – too often a Stage 4 outlook is just anti-obedience in nature, an almost unquestioned throwing out of everything. People sometimes go from holding to the iron rod to feeling like the iron rod is toxic and running from it. Better than that is to recognize the limitations of the iron rod – it’s still surrounded by “mists of darkness,” it’s not clear where it’s headed. It seems that in Stage 5 thinking (to take the Lehi’s dream metaphor further), one gains some night-vision goggles to see through those mists more clearly. What you see may be distracting, may be frightening, may be disgusting, but you see it all much more clearly. Perhaps that metaphor goes a little too far.
Quote:I believe strongly that obedience really is the foundation of growth and progression.
My struggle is that obedience requires that one knows what is right and wrong, which is black and white. Most people would agree that murder is wrong, cheating is wrong etc. But most people that believe this don’t think drinking tea is wrong. I currently see the church as an organization of rules; I can’t drink coffee but I can drink a couple of energy drinks because it’s not on the list. So how do you live in obedience to rules that don’t make sense, other then to test faith, providing very little comfort? It seems to me that Christ taught a gospel of Grace, yet we as LDS teach a disciplinary Gospel. Do this is bad, do this is good.
Quote:It seems to me that Christ taught a gospel of Grace, yet we as LDS teach a disciplinary Gospel. Do this is bad, do this is good.
Fwiw, that last sentence describes the Bible very well. It’s just that Jesus substituted new rules to replace the old ones. Sure, much of what he said focused on the principles underlying the rules and not the rules themselves – but if you listen carefully to what the Brethren say, generally they do the same thing.
It’s easy to forget that many Christians see Jesus as reactionary and STRICT – with penalties attached explicitly to disobedience – and Paul as even more so. This lies at the central debate over justice and mercy – and that’s incredibly complicated in most discussions.
Honestly, the Mormon principle of being judged according to one’s effort to live what one understands is about as central and balanced as exists within that debate.
godlives wrote:Quote:I believe strongly that obedience really is the foundation of growth and progression.
My struggle is that obedience requires that one knows what is right and wrong, which is black and white. Most people would agree that murder is wrong, cheating is wrong etc. But most people that believe this don’t think drinking tea is wrong. I currently see the church as an organization of rules; I can’t drink coffee but I can drink a couple of energy drinks because it’s not on the list. So how do you live in obedience to rules that don’t make sense, other then to test faith, providing very little comfort? It seems to me that Christ taught a gospel of Grace, yet we as LDS teach a disciplinary Gospel. Do this is bad, do this is good.
I appreciate your feelings. I also appreciate that there may be some in the church who teach or parent or live their lives trapped inside this way of percieving the scriptures or the dictates of the church. It’s something that I have always rejected even when I have had to fight the tendancy inside myself to think this way.
I don’t necessarily define obedience as “right or wrong”. Rather its about God’s demands and my willingness to do what he asks. If JSmith said “Teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves”, I think he understood that the vision of the law was more important than the performance of it — not that the permance isn’t an important and vital ingredient. And I also find it interesting too that the church didn’t lay out the lists of “don’ts” with regards to the WofW. They set it before the church and the church sustained the decision. A mutual decision between the church and its people to establish the practice. I think that if we are truly people of principle and we let those values or truths or wisdom guide our actions or choices, then obedience has power to make important eternal change inside of us. If all we do is obey to stave off the sting of the whip and the bite of nosey neighbors, then what have we really developed in terms of character?
Abstaining from tea is just an outter evidence of an inner commitment, not the definition of it. I often think of Samson and his covenant with God to never cut his hair. This covenant isn’t about haircuts or whether or not they are bad. I think in some respects the WofW is the same type of thing.
Sometimes we have to start our obedience process not really understanding the purpose behind what we do. Just like Adam and the alter. He didn’t know why other than God said to. Then God starts to fill in the blanks over time as we study and pray and absorb the tutorials of the spirit and learn the lessons that the law itself can teach. Samson obeyed and he had strength. We obey and God gives us strength or blessings as well. In the case of the WofW, the blessing is health and spiritual knowledge. And I want that. Heck! I need that! I ask God what I have to do to get that. Give up tea? Is that all? Sweet.
It is about submission and faith and trust and humility and discipline and going the distance in the dark sometimes in patience. And its important to know the being we covenant with. It’s not a relationship between me and the church or me and my social circles. It’s about me and my God. No other influence or invitation matters.
Poppyseed wrote:And its important to know the being we covenant with. It’s not a relationship between me and the church or me and my social circles. It’s about me and my God. No other influence or invitation matters.
Fantastic, poppy!
Poppyseed wrote:We obey and God gives us strength or blessings as well.
I see the upside of this statement but there’s unintended consequences too. The inverse would read: “If we disobey God will withhold blessings and we will be weak without His power.”
If this is framed as a purely spiritual concept, meaning spiritual blessings or spiritual strength, then that is absolutely true. Unfortunately, I think, most active members of the church take that concept as physically literal. Meaning physical blessings of health, strength, financial prosperity, etc. And then, again, in that mindset, lack of health, lack of physical strength, lack of financial prosperity is viewed as a consequence of sin.
Yes, I know, that’s not what anyone intends, but when you use the qualifier, “obey” as the reason for God’s goodwill, then the unintended consequences of the inverse play out, generally, in emotionally unhealthy ways. fwiw.
Euhemerus wrote:I am so sad Poppy that you feel you have been pushed toward apostasy on this site. I hope I have not contributed to that. Although I suppose that the definition of apostasy could vary wildly from person to person. I would definitely say that if some TBMs knew my views they would probably consider me an apostate (despite the fact that I renewed my TR yesterday). But I know apostates who consider me an apologist, so I take it all with a grain of salt.
Pops, I totally agree with Euhermerus here. I hope, etc. and I am, etc.
Euhemerus wrote:
Myself on the other hand, was predisposed to continue in stage 3untilI was knocked off my tower
Fascinating turn of phrase, E. I know people who use that phrase the exactitude and precision. Hmm….I moved through phase 4 in about a week. And I seem to keep popping back to it & back out again, depending on topic/principle/concept etc. I honestly think the Holy Ghost is working with me to remove my beliefs that are not true.
HiJolly
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