Stages of Faith and Mormonism

[Anonymous]

I’m trying to understand the idea of “stages of faith” and how they relate to the LDS Church. To me an illustrative example of what I see as the typical difference between Fowler’s Stage 4 and Stage 5 is the general difference in attitude many people have here compared to what I see on the NOM forum. I know there are some people that post on both sites that have probably read more of the posts there than I have but the general impression I get is that many people there started out with the idea of remaining active members but ended up becoming more or less bitter ex-Mormon cynics over time.

Many of the people that post comments on NOM now are atheists or agnostics that don’t really see any value in having faith in anything and even many of the ones that still believe in God seem to be convinced that not only is the Church completely wrong but that it supposedly does more harm than good, is an evil profit-oriented corporation, etc. Meanwhile, it seems like there are a higher percentage of people here that continue to look for what is good about the Church and respect that many TBMs might not be ready to really question or doubt the Church the way they have and that for some people it is comforting to feel like they have answers that give more meaning to their life even if there are problems with these answers that they don’t know about.

I’m not really trying to disparage the NOM site and even if they go too far sometimes I completely understand why they would feel that way because I feel like I’m permanently stuck in Stage 4 myself as well. One of the difficulties I have with trying fully embrace the Church as it is now is that it is currently so strongly geared around the Stage 2-Stage 3 mindset that from my perspective it looks like it is one of the absolute least friendly of all religious sects toward anyone in Stage 4 or Stage 5 with the possible exceptions of the JWs, Muslims, and a few extreme fundamentalist Christian sects that I know of.

Sure many other churches might preach some things that not all of their followers really believe but in our case we go way beyond that by grilling members directly about things like tithing, the WoW, sustaining Church leaders as prophets, seers, and revelators, etc. in regular TR interviews and many of the callings basically involve actively teaching and supporting all these doctrines that are based mostly on extreme literal interpretations of scriptures and unquestioning obedience to authority, tradition, etc. On top of that, when you add the eternal family doctrine salvation is no longer a personal thing between you and God but it becomes other people’s business in a big way whether or not you are living up to what the Church expects and demands out of members.

That’s why transitioning to Stage 4 and Stage 5 while remaining active seems like it would require a lot more patience for most people on average in the LDS Church than it probably would in many other more mainstream churches. I understand that to some people it’s not that difficult and they are perfectly content to just go along with these policies and doctrines to try to get along with other members or they already like the WoW, etc. However, in my case I really felt like I was caught between a rock and a hard place once I started to really doubt the Church. So rather than getting that much comfort from the idea of “Stages of Faith” it mostly worries me about what will happen to more and more members now that there is so much anti-Mormon propaganda on the internet because the Church definitely doesn’t make it very easy on people to deal with some of these doubts and questions. Does anyone have other ideas about how well Mormonism will typically work for people in stages of faith higher than Stage 3 and why?

[Anonymous]

Stage 5 is actually working OK for me now. I have to confess, Fowler’s description is pretty thick for even an academic like me to get through, so I’m postulating a bit. But In November of 2009 I was ready just to stop going to Church, but couldn’t because of the impact on my kids and wife. But my heart was OUT OF IT entirely at the time. I also didn’t want to pay a dime of tithing.

However, after a year of working with a new mindset that doesn’t apologize for the warts of the Church, I’ve managed to do the following:

1. I’m holding a TR with a clear conscience.

2. I had a calling until last Sunday (they released me), and will probably have another one when they find the right one. They have offered another one and I’m responding to it, but want to serve.

3. My kids are getting lots of traction with the Church programs and they are doing much good in their lives.

4. I’m still able to teach lessons with the Spirit, so people leave them feeling uplifted, although I did have a period when that gift left for a bit. But it seems to have returned recently. (I only teach what I believe, and seek to uplift people in their lives rather than make them good Mormons).

5. I’m even considering accepting a leadership calling should one come my way — but only after I work through some of the issues that caused me to leave leadership a while back, and also have more time. And only if my participation here hasn’t marked me as unsuitable. I have posted threads here to try to get help with it, but some of them have been met with zero participation, which makes me wonder if this isn’t the place for it, because most don’t have a desire for leadership and therefore don’t have life experience to respond with? I’m only speculating.

6. I would even consider some kind of Stake calling now if it involved training or designing a better approach to training for the Stake. I also feel engaged in improving the quality of our meetings, and have an interest in better ways of activation.

7. I still don’t really enjoy Sacrament meeting, but the other meetings are OK, and the friendships are satisfying enough for me. My eBook reader is helping me get through Sacrament meeting much better these days!

I’ll post some coping strategies that are working for me in a subsequent post.

[Anonymous]

Coping strategies that are working for me:

1. I realize that few people really know the truth. Therefore, I have to go on the best evidence I have of what is true. I have had spiritual experiences in the Church that at least help me feel that what I’m doing isn’t offensive to God — and I believe they were divine experiences, and that’s good enough for me. Even if they weren’t divine experiences, it’s all I have to go on. So I’m not going to get mired in doubt and do nothing. I’m going to commit as much as I feel I can and get the benefits for my family.

2. I realized that the Church doesn’t have to be true to be good. So I’ve decided my commitment is independent of the scabs on its history such plural marriage, Adam-God theory, Blood Atonement, etcetera. The Church as it currently stands is largely a good organization, which brings fruits into many people’s lives. You can tell me all day it’s not true and I don’t care.

3. I like the character of the people — they are GOOD PEOPLE at heart. We are like minded in our values of basic decency, and most care about relationships and serving others. I completely understand the culture, so its comfortable for me to interact with them. I focus on that.

4. I have learned to neutralize the angst-causing parts of the Church. Tithing was one of them, but after studying its history and a variety of resources here, I believe wholeheartedly that my approach to it now is OK. I have also found ways of being a tithe payer by recognizing some big real estate losses. This has purchased me time to get new traction in the Church, and has helped me stay active. When those losses expire against my tithing, I’ll have to do some more thinking….but have philosophy in place already that I think will make it palatable.

5. I learned to respect the culture — just as I would any culture, corporate or otherwise even though I may object to its norms. Just because it’s volunteer doesn’t give me the right to start a revolution or be outwardly rebellious. And just because I hold my tongue doesn’t mean I’m selling my soul. I clip my thoughts and comments in a whole variety of circumstances; such is part of being a gentleman and respectful of others. Other Churches will likely have different objectionable norms, so I try not to beat up the Church about it on Sundays.

6. I focus on the fruits in my kids lives. If my wife and kids end this life as non-smoking, non-drinking, service-oriented people who value sacrifice for a higher purpose they believe in, become good citizens, believe in honesty and chastity, that won’t bother me one bit. The Church points them in that direction.

7. I realize the GA’s are just men and a lot of what they say is a perpetuation of cultural ideas or their own opinions. The What is Mormon Doctrine? article really helped me see that what matters it the scriptures, and even those are subject to interpretation in many spots.

8. The changes to the CHI have been positive, although a bit too long in coming, and subsequent revisions may well be decades away, but nonetheless, they addressed a few things that were bugging me, like home teaching reporting, lack of RS involvement in PEC. The worldwide training even addressed the fact that “we are not a moving service!!!!”.

9. I minimize my trips to the temple. I find the sessions rather boring, unfortunately. But at least I can go if I choose.

10. I have stopped believing that if I don’t live every commandment fully, they will take my job away from me, or hit me hard somewhere personal. There was a thread where MormonHeretic mentioned he was out of compliance for many years but his employment stayed. In fact, his income went up. Not that I’m encouraging disobedience, but I no longer obey out of fear, which was angst-causing a year ago.

11. I have learned to accept myself for who I am, and to learn to protect my activity from MYSELF. I get deeply hurt by the harsh actions of others, and although these tendencies don’t make me fly off the handle, they tend make me hate the Church. I recognize this and put a lot of effort into dealing with them. That’s me. Take it or leave it — I think it may well be biological. I have learned ways of protecting myself against those tendencies, although it takes a lot of effort. As Ray said, if you call me to something, you get ME. Heck, even I GET ME, and I can’t change that.

Sorry this is long — I think I have more but this is my current state of thinking. Perhaps it qualifies as Stage 5.

[Anonymous]

Those are some good posts SD. I can’t believe you are the same person who started posting on here 9 months ago! 🙂

[Anonymous]

Fantastic examples SD! Thanks for sharing your reconciliation tactics.

It seems to me that one of the key factors to being able to stay active through these transitions is to make the Stage 4 shift of external authority to internal authority as quickly as possible (easier said than done). To put it more clearly, you have to stop caring what other people think, and stop caring that they are different. Not only is this key to staying, it is a REALLY healthy and empowering transition outside of religion in our social relationships.

I can use my journey as an example. I do not follow a lot of the outward cultural rules. So I have to be extra confident and positive about my position internally, and in how I interact with others in the Church (my local ward). I have to be really comfortable and at peace with my decisions. It may sound goofy, but I find a lot of personal value in pushing this to wider extremes. I’ve been in several different wards over the years. Especially the past three years or so when I would assume that my lack of orthodoxy and practice would bring more heat, I really haven’t had the negative social reactions one would expect. I am not questioned or challenged. I get the impression people sense there’s no point. I don’t have the “hooks” of social coercion they expect. I don’t feel guilty or awkward, so they can’t push those buttons. I smile and love people. They just don’t really know what to do with me, except be thankful that I participate happily. In fact, I am probably more happy and willing than a lot of people that don’t know why they are frustrated and overwhelmed

[Anonymous]

DA, I strongly agree with your opening post. Stage 4 will always be difficult. I don’t know if it’s worst for LDS, but it’s bad. I think as time goes by, religions inevitably change as an increasing number of their adherents become active, but open-minded. And that will accelerate with our church due to the internet, as you say.

I don’t know whether it matters that the LDS Church exists or whether the church should thrive or wither. I only know it exists and it is where I showed up. My tribe is my tribe irrespective of any other concerns. I have no special faith in the church, only special loyalty.

[Anonymous]

SilentDawning wrote:

Coping strategies that are working for me: I realized that the Church doesn’t have to be true to be good…I like the character of the people — they are GOOD PEOPLE at heart. We are like minded in our values of basic decency, and most care about relationships and serving others…I learned to respect the culture — just as I would any culture, corporate or otherwise even though I may object to its norms. Just because it’s volunteer doesn’t give me the right to start a revolution or be outwardly rebellious. And just because I hold my tongue doesn’t mean I’m selling my soul…I focus on the fruits in my kids lives. If my wife and kids end this life as non-smoking, non-drinking, service-oriented people who value sacrifice for a higher purpose they believe in, become good citizens, believe in honesty and chastity, that won’t bother me one bit…I realize the GA’s are just men and a lot of what they say is a perpetuation of cultural ideas or their own opinions.

Brian Johnston wrote:

…one of the key factors to being able to stay active through these transitions is to make the Stage 4 shift of external authority to internal authority as quickly as possible…To put it more clearly, you have to stop caring what other people think

Tom Haws wrote:

DA, I strongly agree with your opening post. Stage 4 will always be difficult. I don’t know if it’s worst for LDS, but it’s bad. I think as time goes by, religions inevitably change as an increasing number of their adherents become active, but open-minded. And that will accelerate with our church due to the internet, as you say…I don’t know whether it matters that the LDS Church exists or whether the church should thrive or wither…I have no special faith in the church, only special loyalty.

These are some good ideas and examples but I think some of them also confirm my original point that it takes a significant amount of conscious effort to remain active and you have to really want to make it work because the Church and many members are just not going to be very flexible or accommodating to different views no matter how reasonable. It could take a long time for the Church to realize that many of their current doctrines and policies just aren’t working quite as well as they used to in large part because of the internet exposing more members to outside ideas and opinions than before. In the meantime, I feel bad for many members that will inevitably have to go through a crisis of faith similar to my own or worse. I know there have been some divorces where it looks like sudden differences in beliefs didn’t help the situation at all.

The idea of stages of faith and seeing the story of many ex-Mormons and New Order Mormons makes me realize that my experience is not necessarily as unusual as I thought it was. It looks like it is fairly common for many people to go through some struggles as they try to navigate their way from believing mostly what they have been told and what others expect them to believe to re-evaluating what they can really feel comfortable about believing in a more personal and independent way. This is not even unique to Mormonism but the problem is that the Church currently doesn’t really give people much leeway or wiggle-room to have their own independent opinions or beliefs in many cases.

If anyone has gone through a typical skeptical and/or rebellious phase the Church basically expects them to “repent” completely of their supposed errors and return to conform to a very specific set of accepted group beliefs and rules. This wouldn’t be quite so bad if the group beliefs were fairly reasonable to most people given all the information available but the problem is that for many members the current hard-line doctrines will typically only make sense as long as they have a limited understanding of the available evidence. I know there’s not much I can do to change the Church and other members; I’m just trying to understand what is going on out of curiosity and it looks like they have not sufficiently taken into account what is going to happen now that they can’t hide from some of these questions anymore.

[Anonymous]

DevilsAdvocate wrote:

…

… my experience is not necessarily as unusual as I thought it was. It looks like it is fairly common for many people to go through some struggles as they try to navigate their way from believing mostly what they have been told and what others expect them to believe to re-evaluating what they can really feel comfortable about believing in a more personal and independent way. This is not even unique to Mormonism but the problem is that the Church currently doesn’t really give people much leeway or wiggle-room to have their own independent opinions or beliefs in many cases.

Interesting observation. And accurate IMO. I probably haven’t noticed it so much because like you explain – most these people don’t feel comfortable sticking around for the long run and just eventaully get frustrated and drop out altogether – what do they estimate activitiy in church is at, 30 – 50% at best?

It could be in for a long, bumpy ride.

[Anonymous]

cwald wrote:

DevilsAdvocate wrote:

… my experience is not necessarily as unusual as I thought it was. It looks like it is fairly common for many people to go through some struggles as they try to navigate their way from believing mostly what they have been told and what others expect them to believe to re-evaluating what they can really feel comfortable about believing in a more personal and independent way. This is not even unique to Mormonism but the problem is that the Church currently doesn’t really give people much leeway or wiggle-room to have their own independent opinions or beliefs in many cases.

Interesting observation. And accurate IMO. I probably haven’t noticed it so much because like you explain – most these people don’t feel comfortable sticking around for the long run and just eventaully get frustrated and drop out altogether – what do they estimate activitiy in church is at, 30 – 50% at best? It could be in for a long, bumpy ride.

From what I have read it is something like two-thirds of all members that are inactive but I don’t know how they measure this or how accurate it is. Actually, I think this trend has more to do with personal value judgments than beliefs in many cases because some Jack Mormons don’t really care enough about the Church to put much thought into trying to evaluate the actual beliefs, they just think the meetings are boring and/or they don’t like being told what to do so much by the Church. This is also related to the stages of faith because as soon as members are on their own they need to make some decisions for themselves and unfortunately for many of them their experience with the Church was mostly negative so it was an easy choice for them to stay away from it.

I think the Church has tried to counteract the danger of losing too many members during this vulnerable transition with the cradle-to-grave formula for success of expecting active members to go on missions and then get married in the temple and have children ASAP after that so that they are never really left alone to think for themselves too long because they always have to worry about what other members expect them to believe. This works alright as long as members can feel relatively comfortable with the group beliefs; however the problem is that it has become much harder for an increasing number of members to reconcile their own personal beliefs with the group beliefs now that the internet has given them easier and faster access to more outside information including a number of glaring problems with some of the Church’s doctrines.

For a church that puts so much emphasis on family some of these intolerant hard-line doctrines don’t really make that much sense and they don’t look very Christ-like either because they will basically divide families in increasing numbers and cause unnecessary contention and disappointment when some family members inevitably have a harder time going along with all of this permanently than others. That’s one reason why I think the Church should soften some of their claims and heavy demands because that way even if members end up leaving at least they would have less to really complain about and it would be easier for them to get along with remaining members.

[Anonymous]

DevilsAdvocate wrote:

Sure many other churches might preach some things that not all of their followers really believe but in our case we go way beyond that by grilling members directly about things like tithing, the WoW, sustaining Church leaders as prophets, seers, and revelators, etc. in regular TR interviews and many of the callings basically involve actively teaching and supporting all these doctrines that are based mostly on extreme literal interpretations of scriptures and unquestioning obedience to authority, tradition, etc. On top of that, when you add the eternal family doctrine salvation is no longer a personal thing between you and God but it becomes other people’s business in a big way whether or not you are living up to what the Church expects and demands out of members.

For me, this seem like where the problem is. If you trying to stick it out in the church because you think its really good, what do you do when they ask direct questions? You could lie and agree with them. If you think lying is wrong, your going to eat yourself up from the inside out. I see this as a possible way for the church to destroy a perfectly good person.

I spend along time in my head trying to see things from an angle I agree with. I try to figure out a way that I can agree with them without changing my belief. And without lying.

DevilsAdvocate wrote:

Does anyone have other ideas about how well Mormonism will typically work for people in stages of faith higher than Stage 3 and why?

My guess

You need to be able to live this way for your own reasons. Not the reasons they say.

I don’t think I could ever believe the doctrine as a whole. But I can find wisdom in some things. I have my own reasons for the When and Why of tithing, and I don’t feel guilty about that. I don’t like authority, but sometimes we need a leader. I’ve never like traditions but I do them all the time without knowing it. Do you think is strange to put candles on a birthday cake? Traditions are harmless and make other people feel good.

SilentDawning wrote:

5. I learned to respect the culture — just as I would any culture, corporate or otherwise even though I may object to its norms. Just because it’s volunteer doesn’t give me the right to start a revolution or be outwardly rebellious. And just because I hold my tongue doesn’t mean I’m selling my soul. I clip my thoughts and comments in a whole variety of circumstances; such is part of being a gentleman and respectful of others. Other Churches will likely have different objectionable norms, so I try not to beat up the Church about it on Sundays.

That right there is the most important thing for me right now. I came to that conclusion on my own recently. Now I can stop been angry and just live. When I saw people acting a way I don’t think is correct, I wanted them to change. I really did feel like I was selling my soul if I continued to be part of a group I didn’t agree with. But these people are happy the way they are. Who am I to try to change that? (most of my negative feeling came from RS, something no one else seems to have a problem with)

[Anonymous]

Quote:

(most of my negative feeling came from RS, something no one else seems to have a problem with)

If you only knew . . .

Seriously, problems occur wherever problems occur – and they occur in RS at least as often as they occur anywhere else. With Relief Society, they just last at least twice as long. (and I’m only half-joking when I say that) I’ve had times in my callings when I wanted to take some women into a room, tell them to beat each other up for about an hour, lock the door from the outside then open it again and talk to the bloody bodies when they were too beat up and tired to argue with each other. :wtf: 😡 I knew I couldn’t do it, but it would have worked with at least half the men in the ward.

/end of rant 🙂

[Anonymous]

jwald has told me Horror Stories from the RS. She made a comment to me that is why she doesn’t have a problem with mulitple callings — it keeps her out of RS and no guilt is involved.

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

Seriously, problems occur wherever problems occur – and they occur in RS at least as often as they occur anywhere else. With Relief Society, they just last at least twice as long. (and I’m only half-joking when I say that) I’ve had times in my callings when I wanted to take some women into a room, tell them to beat each other up for about an hour, lock the door from the outside then open it again and talk to the bloody bodies when they were too beat up and tired to argue with each other. :wtf: 😡 I knew I couldn’t do it, but it would have worked with at least half the men in the ward.

/end of rant 🙂

Thanks Ray, after 13 hours of work I needed a good laugh!

[Anonymous]

pickles wrote:

DevilsAdvocate wrote:

Sure many other churches might preach some things that not all of their followers really believe but in our case we go way beyond that by grilling members directly about things like tithing, the WoW, sustaining Church leaders as prophets, seers, and revelators, etc. in regular TR interviews and many of the callings basically involve actively teaching and supporting all these doctrines that are based mostly on extreme literal interpretations of scriptures and unquestioning obedience to authority, tradition, etc. On top of that, when you add the eternal family doctrine salvation is no longer a personal thing between you and God but it becomes other people’s business in a big way whether or not you are living up to what the Church expects and demands out of members.

For me, this seem like where the problem is. If you trying to stick it out in the church because you think its really good, what do you do when they ask direct questions? You could lie and agree with them. If you think lying is wrong, your going to eat yourself up from the inside out. I see this as a possible way for the church to destroy a perfectly good person. I spend along time in my head trying to see things from an angle I agree with. I try to figure out a way that I can agree with them without changing my belief. And without lying.

You need to be able to live this way for your own reasons. Not the reasons they say. I don’t think I could ever believe the doctrine as a whole. But I can find wisdom in some things. I have my own reasons for the When and Why of tithing, and I don’t feel guilty about that. I don’t like authority, but sometimes we need a leader. I’ve never like traditions but I do them all the time without knowing it. Do you think is strange to put candles on a birthday cake? Traditions are harmless and make other people feel good….Now I can stop been angry and just live. When I saw people acting a way I don’t think is correct, I wanted them to change. I really did feel like I was selling my soul if I continued to be part of a group I didn’t agree with. But these people are happy the way they are. Who am I to try to change that?

It’s unfortunate that the Church puts people in this position to the point that some of them feel like going along with it would be sacrificing their personal integrity. Personally I don’t think most Church leaders meant any harm by this I just think they don’t really know any better because they are just going along with the traditions they have inherited so they really believe that allowing unbelievers, drinkers, smokers, etc. into the temple would desecrate the sacredness of it and that strong belief and commitment is just an expected part of being practicing Mormons. My guess is they ask about some of the same things for baptism thinking it is just being upfront about what they expect out of members to try to see who is really willing to commit to following these requirements from the beginning.

Some people that don’t believe everything the Church says do just like you say and look for their own reasons for going along with it. For example, they see the question of sustaining Church leaders as prophets, seers, and revelators as simply a case of supporting them in their calling as much as possible while still recognizing that they are only human and can still make mistakes. My solution is simply to tell them that I don’t have enough faith (in the Church) at this point to do callings or pay tithing. It’s not really dishonest at all and it saves me from having to get into all the other issues I have with the Church that would make members defensive as if their cherished beliefs are under attack.

You’re right, tradition isn’t always bad and sometimes it makes people feel better even in cases where some of these things don’t really make sense or serve any obvious purpose by themselves. However, I think some traditions are worse than others and I worry about some of the side-effects of perpetuating some of the myths the Church emphasizes so much like the idea that prophets will never lead the Church astray or that people should be expected to make extreme sacrifices in this life mostly for the sake of some promised eternal reward in the next life. What happens if the prophets have already been wrong many times or if these assumptions about exactly how things will work after death are not accurate? These assertions are based on an unreasonable level of faith in men as far as I’m concerned and that’s why I take most of what the Church says with a grain of salt.

[Anonymous]

DevilsAdvocate wrote:

Some people that don’t believe everything the Church says do just like you say and look for their own reasons for going along with it. For example, they see the question of sustaining Church leaders as prophets, seers, and revelators as simply a case of supporting them in their calling as much as possible while still recognizing that they are only human and can still make mistakes. My solution is simply to tell them that I don’t have enough faith (in the Church) at this point to do callings or pay tithing. It’s not really dishonest at all and it saves me from having to get into all the other issues I have with the Church that would make members defensive as if their cherished beliefs are under attack.

You’re right, tradition isn’t always bad and sometimes it makes people feel better even in cases where some of these things don’t really make sense or serve any obvious purpose by themselves. However, I think some traditions are worse than others and I worry about some of the side-effects of perpetuating some of the myths the Church emphasizes so much like the idea that prophets will never lead the Church astray or that people should be expected to make extreme sacrifices in this life mostly for the sake of some promised eternal reward in the next life. What happens if the prophets have already been wrong many times or if these assumptions about exactly how things will work after death are not accurate? These assertions are based on an unreasonable level of faith in men as far as I’m concerned and that’s why I take most of what the Church says with a grain of salt.

That is exactly my view on the prophets. I think the Church contradicts themselves by saying all of us sin, yet prophets can’t make mistakes… they are only human.

I think I made a mistake, I should have said ritual instead of tradition. Sometimes people keep doing bad thing just because of tradition. And by ritual, I mean harmless, meaningless (imo), ordinances.

[Author]

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