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This Sunday my HPG lesson is the Stay in the Boat talk from last GC. Personally, not a talk I like very much. I would like to speak up in the discussion in a thoughtful way to offer some alternative perspectives to what I assume (based on my experience with this HPG) will be some very Orthodox thoughts about this topic. Any suggestions from those here for non-defensive ways to discuss this?
I do plan on sharing something like this – “You know, that is not the experience I have had in my life. I actually have a couple of siblings who are no longer members but they are very happy productive people. They are great spouses and fathers and work hard. And in fact I believe they are happier not being Mormon than they were when they were active.”
I’m also wondering what to say if the topic of John Dehlin comes up. I’m not going to let ignorant comments slide, but I don’t want to be aggressive in my defense. If it does come up I plan on starting again something like ” you know that has not been my experience. I have quite a few friends who have listened to the Mormon Stories podcasts and are a part of some of the other groups that John has started and they have found those forums to be very helpful in remaining engaged as members of the church. Without those forums I think they would have left.”
Other thoughts or ideas?
I like to refer to the 11th article of faith, we allow all men to worship God according to the dictates of their own conscience. I combine that with the idea that I am not entitled to receive personal revelation for my brother, and then the question: “can we fully/completely understand the mind and will of God?” …we must follow our own conscience, and we must allow our brothers to do the same . . . without our petty judgments and comments against them. Comments like this one from the talk blow my mind:
Quote:Recently, I spoke at the new mission presidents’ seminar and counseled these leaders:
“Keep the eyes of the mission on the leaders of the Church. … We will not and … cannot lead [you] astray.
I don’t know how to take that comment. From history we have examples of leaders teaching things that later were pronounced wrong. The “can’t lead you astray” statement looks ironic and doing itself exactly what it says can’t be done.…but I apply the 11th article of faith to this situation also.
I might talk about how those in the boat shouldn’t be pushing others out of the boat – since the counsel to stay in boat applies to everyone who is in it, not just one type of member.I probably would say that I know people who leave the boat intentionally and completely on their own, but that, as Pres. Uchtdorf said, “It’s not that simple,” when applied to everyone. Some leave even though they want to stay just because the majority of members draw boundary lines that are tighter than what the top leadership would draw. (You could mention cwald without naming him as a friend who had that happen.) I also probably would cite Elder Wirthlin’s “Concern for the One” – in which he says quite clearly that it is up to the “normal” members to accept the “different” members and help them not feel so different that they feel they have no place.
That’s the lesson in our ward this Sunday, too, but I’ll be in another ward. I recognize that this particular talk rubs many of us here the wrong way, and I understand. It’s not my favorite talk, either. The real focus of that talk is in the end, though, where Elder Ballard comes around to the idea that we need to focus on core gospel principles, particularly loving our neighbors. Taken as a whole, the entire thing builds to that idea in the end. I fully agree with the recommendations of the Uchtdorf and Wirthlin talks and it truly is “not that simple.” I don’t think there’s any harm in sharing your own experiences or those of people you’re aware of in pointing out that things are not always so black and white (they might appear that way from the bubble, though 
I would approach the lesson by asking questions. For example: One statement he used is:
Quote:Our local Church leaders, like seasoned river guides, have been tutored by life’s experiences; have been trained and mentored by apostles and prophets and other officers of the Church; and most important, have been tutored by the Lord Himself.
If there are any former Bishops or BP, ask them what training they received for Family counseling or addiction recovery or grief counseling, etc.Don’t make it sound like an attack but you want to know for personal information something you weren’t aware of.
From my own past experiences, they didn’t receive much training at all in areas like this.
You could also ask, what resources can they draw upon. (Community or church) From past experience, it was limited.
You could ask, if someone comes to church looking for an answer to their FC & in the process feels anger most of the time, how do they work through it?
(The response will probably be that they need to pray more.) Then you could say, let’s assume they are praying & don’t seem to be getting answers.
What do they do next?
For me, this lesson has to go from platitudes to practical application.
This journey through life is personal for each of us. There are many lessons to be learned. The conclusion for me is: be a resource if needed & don’t judge.
There are worse things then leaving the church.
Quote:For me, this lesson has to go from platitudes to practical application.
True for ALL lessons, really, and yet often not done. I would take that boat analogy to the nth degree, and I would also tell the story of when my son was seasick on a San Diego whale watching boat. Yeah, he stayed in the boat, but he vomited on 12 random strangers. That’s what staying on the boat means.
Mike wrote:If there are any former Bishops or BP, ask them what training they received for Family counseling or addiction recovery or grief counseling, etc.
Don’t make it sound like an attack but you want to know for personal information something you weren’t aware of.
From my own past experiences, they didn’t receive much training at all in areas like this.
Given that my dad, several brother-in-laws, and several close friends have all been bishops, I really feel like there is WAY too much on-the-job training and some of it you just can’t “learn” without making tons of mistakes until you realize which things work in what situations. I really think that anybody in the bishopric, YM, YW, RS, Primary presidencies should be getting some real practical training on helping others with problems. At least some overviews to even have a clue what is going on and then were to get more assistance/advice. Then the bishop should have some training in several areas also.
I know one good friend of mine was a good loving bishop and he also was not afraid to send people to mental health counseling. I really feel for the situation bishops are put in and that is lumped on top of the enormous amount of time they put into that position. I have attended some Bishop’s Welfare Council meetings (where all the bishops or designated counselors meet) and they talk quite a bit about how to help those that walk off the street asking for help, where are the local LDS counselors and ways to pay for their services.
Point#1: Stay in the boat is good advice. But that means we all have to get along in the boat together…working together and not on our own.
That means if someone is leaning too far one way…we could all flip unless others I lean the other way and balance us out. It would be dumb to all lean the same way all the time…it would be a sure way to capsize.
Point#2:
Don’t worry so much about telling others to stay in the boat for their own good. Instead, focus on making the boat comfortable and welcoming and warm…so people want to be in it.
Quote:Those that stray need a friend—but they need one who knows the Shepherd. Seldom do people cease coming to Church because of doctrine; they are waiting for a show of genuine love and friendly fellowship to heal their hurts or doubts.
-David B Haight, People to People, Oct 1981 Conf.This quote meant a lot to me when I found it a couple of years ago and might come in handy: Quote:We are like sailors who on the open sea must reconstruct their ship but are never able to start afresh from the bottom. Where a beam is taken away a new one must at once be put there, and for this the rest of the ship is used as support. In this way, by using the old beams and driftwood the ship can be shaped entirely anew, but only by gradual reconstruction.— Otto Neurath I looked at the boat as my own personal faith vessel, but if the boat is the church it still applies, I think.
What a cool analogy Ann! In some ways the church is reconstructing itself. But it cannot do too much at a time for fear of sinking the boat. Perhaps some things like prophetic psuedo-infallability are load bearing beams that can never be removed? At least until the generation that grew up on the concept pass on. I suppose there are two churches: the church that exists and the church that exists in our collective minds. Perhaps the two can co-exist as long as they are not glaringly far apart.
I’d mention about the different roles people play in the boat…. Some are rowing furiously, and happy doing so. Others may well be weary from years of service (Quote Wirthin’s talk on Concern for the One) and need to simply experience the ride as they recharge, and others, well, you could quote my own experience. Burnt out from years of service, some difficulties with people in the Ward, and how a 2 year stint as a leader in a non-profit really helped rejuvinate me and rekindle my service to mankind….still in the boat, but recharging and playing a more supportive role in the boat, than an pivotal one. SilentDawning wrote:I’d mention about the different roles people play in the boat…. Some are rowing furiously, and happy doing so. Others may well be weary from years of service (Quote Wirthin’s talk on Concern for the One) and need to simply experience the ride as they recharge, and others, well, you could quote my own experience. Burnt out from years of service, some difficulties with people in the Ward, and how a 2 year stint as a leader in a non-profit really helped rejuvinate me and rekindle my service to mankind….still in the boat, but recharging and playing a more supportive role in the boat, than an pivotal one.
And there are some using the bucket to take water from the lake and put it in the boat!
We had a great combined priesthood & RS lesson on this talk a little while ago. The instructor spent some time discussing how it is ok to have doubts and questions, in fact we should question things in order to gain a better testimony of them. 😮 People were not taking it well until two different older people that have come back into activity in the last couple of years talked about being thrown out of the boat. They said not being able to ask real questions and get real answers pushed them away from the church. All they felt was judgment when they needed help. All I could think was ditto. I have actually seen a little bit of a change in the ward since then. It helped me to have a small glimmer of hope.
That is wonderful, Mrs. SC. It’s easy to dismiss something until someone you know, respect and love makes it personal. :clap: :clap: Mrs. SuperChicken wrote:I have actually seen a little bit of a change in the ward since then. It helped me to have a small glimmer of hope.
I think there is a slow and little bit of change also, MSC. I think it is because some things are inevitable. I know many church members that are smart (including family). The issues that are arising (historicicty, BOA, and other essay topics) will not go away, and people will learn, even from a faithful perspective or apologetic way, they are real issues to make sense of. Most will drink the Kook Aid and take a faithful explanation and then move forward entrenched in their faith. I think there will be more sympathy for questions or doubts in the church. I see it happening. Because truth cannot be dismissed, it only gets painted and dressed up by our different perspectives on it.
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