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Part of the problem is that when a person gives up belief in the church with a capital “T” then what takes it’s place? We’re raised with the idea that others are good but not quite good enough and have truth but not quite enough. And if the church isn’t really true then what about God, Jesus, et al? Just repeating what’s been said a bezillion times before. Tom Haws wrote:Ah, Ray, the Personal Way.
Silent Dawning, I am amazed to hear that you WANT to believe again, and I would like to hear more about that. Believe in what sense? Return to believing the Dalai Lama and the Pope need an LDS baptism? Heaven forbid! Pray do tell me more.
I would LIKE to simply believe as a TBM all over again. Even though it may seem shallow to many at this point, it answered most of the vexing questions about life, provided structure, a sense of personal safety, and a list of things I could just DO to find favor with God. That I was somehow “The Elect of God” because I magnified the priesthood provided personal worth and security. There were leaders I looked up to before I became a leader myself, and it really did bless my life in a number of ways — until those things caused me so much angst that I just had to give up the belief system. But for decades, it was good enough.
My desire to return is similar to the way people view their life as a child before they had the cares of the world, living under the loving protection of their parents, with imposed structure and a sense of security.
In fact, during previous decades, I fell away due to awful experiences in the Church, and then, by immersing myself in the lessons and priesthood meeting, felt sparks of new belief that propelled me into TBM status again.
However, in spite of flashes of contentment with this new way of viewing the world, there is a nagging wonder if I’ve just apostasized in my heart. And I long for the days when my wife and I viewed the world the same way. The other day I asked her “Do you really think these local leaders are ALWAYS inspired?”. She replied “I don’t want to have that conversation. When you broach these kinds of conversations, it upsets me”. So, I am alone in my family. There are times when my kids come into my office as I’m writing here, and I feel that I have to minimize the screen because I don’t want them to see the divergent ideas I’m sharing. I never want them to know the poster named SilentDawning is their father….
Another analogy — ever notice that people will come out with the nastiest statements about the Church, even anti-Mormon stuff. Then, when you suggest name removal, they say “No”? I asked one lady that question when I was TBM — if you have such negative beliefs about the Church as some kind of cult, why don’t you just leave it? She replied “because I have this nagging little thought that it might be true, and I don’t want to cut myself off in case it is…”
Now, do I want the Dahli Lama to be baptized? I don’t think I ever expected the whole world to be baptized even as a TBM. I realized there was choice in what we believe, and a second chance in the Spirit world. I had satisfied myself that the lack of clarity in this life about what is true provides God with a way of relieving imperfect people from the full force of the law of justice — because it’s unmerciful and wrong to hold people accountable for things they didn’t actually know. So, in making the spiritual waters murky, God is giving himself latitude to save souls that he might have otherwise lost if the truth was glaringly clear.
Funny if you read my posts over the last few months, you see periods of independence from our LDS belief system, while suriving actively within it, and then periods where I desire a reversion. How utterly unstable….or perhaps its just an indication of personal growth and change.
I don’t know about all those other churches, and those other Christians, or the billions of Buddhists or Hindus or other religions, or agnostics or atheists or scientists. All I know is, the church makes me a better person. I love it. I’m grateful for it. I find truth in it. I’m proud to ordain my son to the office of a deacon to have him officiate in it. I’m Mormon because it makes me happy (more often than not), not because it is the only way for everyone, or the exclusive source of truth and revelation. But as for me and my house…we will have faith in the Church as the Kingdom of God on the earth, until we see evidence of a better way. But to be honest, I’m open to the idea there might be other ways out there that are better, or maybe just as good…and I respect other religions and people that show good fruit. Who am I to say where the Lord draws the line of where His Kingdom starts and where it ends or what is a part of it or what is not? I will let Him worry about that, I will let other church members believe what they believe, and I will believe what I believe. Others may view me sometimes as a non-believer, but I say, “I believe, but please Lord, help thou my unbelief” (Mark 9:24). I guess where I’ve gotten to is that I don’t have to answer all my questions or work through all problems to go back to believing in what I do believe in (and call myself a believer), while I still doubt some things and keep working through some mysteries. I’ve just found peace and comfort in approaching it that way, because while I still seek truth, I can benefit from believing in the beautiful parts of the gospel that benefit me.
All I know is, I love the gospel…and sometimes the church too.
Quote:Heber 13: I guess where I’ve gotten to is that I don’t have to answer all my questions or work through all problems to go back to believing in what I do believe in (and call myself a believer), while I still doubt some things and keep working through some mysteries. I’ve just found peace and comfort in approaching it that way, because while I still seek truth, I can benefit from believing in the beautiful parts of the gospel that benefit me.
I think this is reflection of my feelings.
I LOVE that I’ve found Staylds.com!
To clarify: I never said I want to believe in the exact same way as anyone else – and I certainly don’t believe every person MUST be baptized in the traditional Mormon sense. I believe vicarious work is more for us than for the dead – but I really LOVE the symbolism.
All I said is that I want to be a believer – and if you’ve read my Saturday posts this month, I think you might have gotten a sense of what I mean by that. I want to believe ALL truth, no matter the source – and I don’t want to exclude ANY “traditional Mormon belief” from that “all” reflexively. I honestly haven’t found anything that I would consider to be core Mormon doctrine or Gospel principle that I can’t believe in some way, even though my way might be different than the average member – or even everyone else here. My way is mine, and that’s good enough for me.
Well said Heber. I don’t think you need to want to “go back” to an old form of belief, to want to “believe.” You can believe in a new way, or in a truer way than you knew previously. I find this idea in harmony with what I consider the core of Mormonism. I’ve said several times before — for me a core tenet of Mormonism is a search for truth. As Joseph Smith said:
Quote:”
Mormonism is truth; and every man who embraces it feels himself at liberty to embrace every truth: consequently the shackles of superstition, bigotry, ignorance, and priestcraft fall at once from his neck; and his eyes are opened to see the truth, and truth greatly prevails…” also “Mormonism is truth, in other words the doctrine of the Latter-day Saints, is truth. . . . The first and fundamental principle of our holy religion is, that we believe that we have a right to embrace all, and every item of truth, without limitation or without being circumscribed or prohibited by the creeds or superstitious notions of men…” Joseph Smith RS/P manual p.264 So even IF a large body of the church are found practicing superstition, false traditions of their fathers, bigotry and ignorance, I call myself one of their kind because of this deeper desire to become enlightened with truth. It’s not where you are at the moment, it’s the direction you’re headed that counts. Even if from my perception some progress is painfully slow, I like associating with people who express a desire to personally improve. I enjoy the traditions for what they represent. I feel at home. At times I even feel comforted. I don’t want to be ignorant, or “blindly” believe. Such things are not found at the heart of Mormonism, even though they may be found in popular Mormonism – as they may be found in the modern cultures of many other religions too. I want to believe in what is right and true, personally/spiritually as well as universally/physically. I believe in Mormonism, as I understand it. That does not mean I see everything in the same way as other members, but it means I believe the things that have been “revealed” to me personally. It cannot mean anything else.
When Mormonism is defined as truth, believing in Mormonism is believing in everything that is true. If evolution can be proven as fact it becomes Mormon doctrine. If the Kinderhook plates are a proven fraud, that becomes Mormon doctrine. There is no end to a church that is defined by truth, the quest for truth is eternal. If a large body want to “go astray” on the superstitious notions of men they will, but if there is an anchor called truth there is always a place to return. At the same time we need a healthy dose of humility in recognizing how precious little truth we actually have — as mortals.
To me it’s the beauty of believing in modern revelation – the freedom to believe in truth. As Brigham Young (I think) said . . . some things are revealed through (prophetic) revelation, some things are revealed through science…
I like the Ray and Orson “embrace all truth” pure Mormonism method. I can understand how hard and scary it would be to go straight from the chapel to a faith crisis in a matter of weeks or months. And I can appreciate that in that position, it’s unrealistic to expect to draw much strength from worldwide revelation and holiness. Let me put in a huge plug as we consider our spiritual future and our personal security to branch out far and wide and positive and uplifting in our studies. And bear in mind I am talking about devotional studies, not the alarming studies that may have upset our security in the first place. I’m always giving lists, but I’m gonna do it again:
Visit other positive churches sometimes. Take the Belief-O-Matic if you need ideas. Build bridges.
- Learn from early Christianity (read devotionally from The Gospels of Thomas and Mary Magdalene, selections from Justin Martyr, Origen, Clement, and the Didache)
- Learn from modern spirituality (Swedenborg, Eckhart Tolle, Raymond Moody or
http://www.near-death.com , Adyashanti, Mooji)- Learn of the great historical Christian souls (Saint Francesco of Assisi, Perpetua, Saint Augustine, Martin Luther)
- Learn of Eastern saints (Ashoka, Ghandi, Ramakrishna, the Bhagavad Gita, the Tao Te Ching)
- Read affirming scholarly works (Joseph Cambell and the Power of Myth, James Fowler Stages of Faith)
All these things can enrich our Mormonism and bring us great strength and love if we let them.
‘Truth’ is overrated, in large part because truth is subjective. I see no way around that, nor do I see it as a problem necessarily. I am suspicious of any organization that lays claim to truth, since the instant it becomes institutional, it ceases to be ‘truth’. That sounds a little more radical than I intended, and I’m not sure I’m comfortable with the implications. Now I have to go think about it some more. doug wrote:…the instant it becomes institutional, it ceases to be ‘truth’.
Word! Unless the institution cares not for its own existence, it has already ceased to be “truth”.
Saying that a church is true (or false) is to make a “category error” in logic. It is like saying that a tree is false, or saying a song you are listening to is vanilla-flavored. You can say “that tree has green leaves,” which can be a true or false statement. You can say “the LDS Church teaches that we will be exalted someday, if we live the principles of the LDS Gospel, and that is true.” That idea could be true or false (although hard to prove, empirically).
The LDS Church is as true or false as a ham sandwich (my statement).
Brian Johnston wrote:The LDS Church is as true or false as a ham sandwich.
I may try that in fast & testimony meeting. I’ll report back.
Quote:Unless the institution cares not for its own existence, it has already ceased to be “truth”.
I have been reading the autobiography of Ben Franklin, and he echoed a number of my own sentiments, as well as the one above (which I think is a bit of corrollary to what he believed). I intend to post this as I’m finding his approach to religion and life very interesting, and parallel to mine in many respects during this period in my life….stay tuned.
doug wrote:‘Truth’ is overrated, in large part because truth is subjective. I see no way around that, nor do I see it as a problem necessarily. I am suspicious of any organization that lays claim to truth, since the instant it becomes institutional, it ceases to be ‘truth’. That sounds a little more radical than I intended, and I’m not sure I’m comfortable with the implications. Now I have to go think about it some more.
Doug, isn’t the middle way kind of embracing your opinion and applying it? In other words, it is not giving up and saying there is no truth so therefore leave the church because it is false…but instead stating (as did Obi-Wan) that truth can depend greatly from our point of view, so therefore…stay in the church and make it an experience that works for you and your truth, regardless of what others think? The church’s institutional truth doesn’t have authority over my personal view of truth in my home or my head, as Elder Oaks taught us in conference.Heber13 wrote:
Doug, isn’t the middle way kind of embracing your opinion and applying it? In other words, it is not giving up and saying there is no truth so therefore leave the church because it is false…but instead stating (as did Obi-Wan) that truth can depend greatly from our point of view, so therefore…stay in the church and make it an experience that works for you and your truth, regardless of what others think? The church’s institutional truth doesn’t have authority over my personal view of truth in my home or my head, as Elder Oaks taught us in conference.Heber, you’re quite right. And on a good day, it’s no problem to imagine doing just that, “regardless of what others think”, or what I think they think. The reality is that it’s a difficult, tedious, slog, and some days it doesn’t seem like it’s worth it. Interacting intimately with people who think so differently is taxing, and requires you to be constantly evaluating your own position … which in some way is probably a good thing. Maybe I didn’t express it accurately, but the fact is there is conflict, and conflict can be tiring. Definitely stage 4 today.
If I were king, I would strike the word ‘true’ and its evil derivative from the non-mathematical lexicon, thereby forcing people to give some consideration to whatever it is they would have used those words for.
Quote:Unless the institution cares not for its own existence, it has already ceased to be “truth”.
I was wondering if anyone could expand on this idea idea in quotes a bit. I can give my own interpretation, but I’d like to hear the interpretations of others — more detailed that what we’ve already said in this thread so far…I find the idea fascinating.
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