StayLDS men: How to talk about Heavenly Mother?

[Anonymous]

I won’t tell the whole story because it still smarts, but I felt really dismissed today when I broached the subject of Heavenly Mother.

My question isn’t whether there’s justification for the existence of her, it’s me wanting an honest reason for your hesitancy, if you have it, to “go there,” and talk about it. I’m not a man; what am I not understanding?

What I got today boiled down to protecting Heavenly Mother from blasphemers and people who would pray to her. But, most of all, let’s change the subject.

[Anonymous]

I don’t know if I can answer your question as I don’t feel I am one of those that wants to hush this conversation. Then again, I consider myself a feminist.

I have prayed to her. I can’t say that I had some revelatory experience when doing so. But when I think of Heavenly Mother, I only think of a loving parent. I read the old testament and get a picture of a heavenly father that was at times very cruel. I guess this is because with my parents, my mom was the one that always had love for everyone. Don’t get me wrong – my dad is a great guy – but he was the one to bring the hammer down on discipline.

So I don’t get it either. And the latest essay on Heavenly Mother frustrates me. If you follow my posts (rants?) you will see I have a big issue with the top leaders to me not having much faith. They seem to be retreating on much of the doctrine that was clearly taught to me when I was young. I don’t see a bunch of men with the mentality of “we just have to be clear and let the chips fall – after all God is on our side.” One could say that the POX is an example where they are being bold, but come on – look at how that was rolled out. That does not feel to me like an action taken by confident men

The doctrine of a Heavenly Mother is one of the things I find beautiful and interesting about our religion. It feels to me that for decades the church has been trying to close the door on this and it continues to this day with the essay on this. A bunch of “Nothing really here – move along”.

Can you tell I have not had my morning coffee yet? 😈 JK

[Anonymous]

It helps to know what you’re up against.

The larger Christian world views the concept of a heavenly mother as blasphemous. We don’t talk about HM openly because it makes us look weird.

There’s not much official doctrine about HM so any discussion would be speculative. When you really get down to it everything is speculative but the church of the 21st century isn’t the church of the 19th century. We like to rely on what Joseph said and we’re extremely reluctant to go much further beyond what he revealed. “This generation shall have my word through you.”

For example, there’s a group that wants to ordain women. One of their approaches is to go back in history to find things that Joseph did or said that indicate his intention to ordain women. We look towards Elijah Abel when we push for a revelation about blacks and the priesthood. A part of that stems from the culture of the petitioner, another part stems from knowing your audience.

Then there’s what I view as the biggie. Our concept of deity evolved out of patriarchal social systems.

I think we mostly don’t talk about HM because we’d need a new revelation to be able to say much of anything. Frankly it’s going to be hard to create much heavenly mother theology when we currently only have the faith necessary to receive new bylaws.

[Anonymous]

Nibbler’s comments reminded me of one thing I learned that explains (partially) why the top leaders are reluctant to talk about her. It probably doesn’t explain all of why average Joe in the church reacts the way you experienced.

DBMormon / Bill Reel has a VERY interesting discussion being released on about the 22nd of next month on http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/” class=”bbcode_url”>http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/. It is a deep dive with Corbin Volluz into the Adam God theory/doctrine. I highly recommend this one when it comes out. There is a short bit that postulates that the doctrine of a Heavenly Mother gets intermingled with Adam God. In attempt to distance from the whole Adam God stuff (mess?) and anything to do with it, the concept of Heavenly Mother gets a bit caught in that net.

[Anonymous]

This is simplistic, I know, but, sometimes, simpler is better.

I just talk about her in the context of Heavenly Parents. I generally will say that I know my view is unorthodox, but . . .

For example, if I am trying to use common Mormon-speak, I will say something like:

Quote:

“I love the concept of Heavenly Parents, and I think that concept is one of the best “restored” aspects of the Gospel we teach. There isn’t anything written about Heavenly Mother in our canonized scriptures, so I have to accept what seems right to me. I know so many wildly different ways that women are great mothers, so I can’t say I am sure HM is one particular way, but I like the image of two scientists working together to create things – or two farmers or gardeners working together to plant and grow things. I personally don’t believe in eternal pregnancy and birth like what happens here in mortality, for lots of reasons that would take a while to explain, but I love the idea of collaborating and cooperating in the process of creation.”

[Anonymous]

I agree with all that has been posted. Especially Ray’s comment to keep it simple. (My personal mantra.)

I am reading the book titled: Wrestling the Angel: Foundations of Mormon Thought… by Terryl Givens.

In chapter 12, he addresses this topic in a lot of detail from the earliest OT times.

This is a good source if you want to get into the details.

If I were going to explain my beliefs about HM, I personally would have a hard time addressing the topic.

Other than to say: It’s complicated.

I’m more interested in: what got you worked up?

[Anonymous]

I see explanations and justifications for not talking about HM in the exact same way I see justifications for the Priesthood ban prior to OD2: There was no revelation giving an explanation, and people need explanations, so they made up whatever worked for them.

Justifications and explanations tell more about us than they do about Heavenly Mother. We show ourselves when we talk about this, and lots of people aren’t comfortable showing themselves (or even examining themselves) when they have nothing authoritative from someone else on which to rely.

[Anonymous]

Old Timer wrote:

Justifications and explanations tell more about us than they do about Heavenly Mother. We show ourselves when we talk about this, and lots of people aren’t comfortable showing themselves (or even examining themselves) when they have nothing authoritative from someone else on which to rely.

This gets at what made me so crestfallen that day. I’m talking to a good man, but there is nothing in the conversation that tells me he’s ever wondered what it would be like to spend fifty-some years in a church that glories in the flesh-and-blood nature of the Father while being allergic to talk about Mother.

And while he is not a boat-rocker, he’s always been a creative, expansive thinker, unafraid to speculate, at least in private. But here – no pulse. I don’t think he’s afraid to speculate. And then I wonder if our leaders are the same. They can’t wish the idea away, It’s already out there. But they just don’t want it to have implications.

Like I said, good men.

[Anonymous]

Ann, this is a very interesting observation:

Quote:

…I’m talking to a good man, but there is nothing in the conversation that tells me he’s ever wondered what it would be like to spend fifty-some years in a church that glories in the flesh-and-blood nature of the Father while being allergic to talk about Mother.

And while he is not a boat-rocker, he’s always been a creative, expansive thinker, unafraid to speculate, at least in private. But here – no pulse. I don’t think he’s afraid to speculate. And then I wonder if our leaders are the same. They can’t wish the idea away, It’s already out there. But they just don’t want it to have implications.

Like I said, good men.

This topic is not well documented in church history or conference talks, etc. As a result, it is left to individual members to formulate their own personal views & opinions on the topic, then defend & articulate what & why they believe. Most men are practical. We want to be in control. We don’t want to appear foolish.

I like to research, study and discuss before articulating my opinion or personal beliefs. I’m not usually a spontaneous person. This may have been the case in your example. I believe that you definitely gave him something to think about. (Me too.)

[Anonymous]

Ann – even for creative thinkers some things take time.

The last time I went in for a TR, the Stake Presidency member asked me what my first spiritual experience was. (It was a question he asked everyone. I guess as an ice breaker.) I answered when I came to know there was a Heavenly Mother. I was about 4 years old. He loved it. He said it was the most original answer, but he said it was clearly sincere, because I lit up before I answered it. He was right. It’s one of my favorite earth life memories. He didn’t doubt me, challenge me, or question me. He genuinely appreciated it.

I don’t think it’s a man thing, I think it’s a church thing. It’s like Emma Smith we just don’t give her any air time.

[Anonymous]

It’s one of those “Deep” topics, where the early leaders of Church brought up some pretty weird topics. One of the earliest justifications for polygammy was, in fact, that God is a polygamist. So according to “doctrine” (if you’d call it that), there are multiple heavenly mothers, who have given “birth” to the spirits of mankind. Not very feminist if you ask me. Beyond that, the leaders of the Church have remained silent; any discussion beyond would be philisophical, and without much doctrinal basis, if any at all.

[Anonymous]

I need to set aside for a moment the particulars of why this hurt, but I’ve been on the lookout for what better minds than mine have to offer. This reminds me of, “A Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible.”

Ralph Waldo Emerson:

Quote:

Our age is retrospective. It builds the sepulchres of the fathers. It writes biographies, histories, and criticism. The forgoing generations beheld God and nature face to face; we, through their eyes. Why should we not also enjoy an original relation to the universe? … Why should we grope among the dry bones of the past, or put the living generation into masquerade out of its faded wardrobe?

Quote:

Men have come to speak of the revelation as somewhat long ago given and done, as if God were dead. The injury to the faith throttles the preacher; and the goodliest of institutions becomes an uncertain and inarticulate voice.

Quote:

…true Christianity – a faith like Christ’s in the infinitude of man [and woman?] – is lost. But it is the office of a true teacher to show us that God is, not was; that He speaketh, not spake.

[Anonymous]

Ann wrote:

This gets at what made me so crestfallen that day. I’m talking to a good man, but there is nothing in the conversation that tells me he’s ever wondered what it would be like to spend fifty-some years in a church that glories in the flesh-and-blood nature of the Father while being allergic to talk about Mother.

It seems puzzling to me, too, Ann.

I have tried to openly talk about her in lessons I teach, in talks I’ve given over the pulpit, and discussions with people…I seem to just throw in stuff that makes sense to me nonchalantly and don’t make it a big deal…because to me it is not. There is no reason in my mind not to talk about HM as much as HF. Our theology confirms it…why not just state it as the obvious? I don’t think I really get anyone correcting me. I talk about praying to her if you want…seems logical…takes nothing away from HF or Jesus.

In my last SM talk I said:

Quote:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches that all human beings, male and female, are beloved spirit children of heavenly parents, a Heavenly Father and a Heavenly Mother. This understanding is rooted in scriptural and prophetic teachings about the nature of God, our relationship to Deity, and the godly potential of men and women. The doctrine of a Heavenly Mother is a cherished and distinctive belief among Latter-day Saints.

…

The most notable expression of the idea is found in a poem by Eliza R. Snow, entitled “My Father in Heaven” and now known as the hymn “O My Father.” This text declares: “In the heav’ns are parents single? / No, the thought makes reason stare; / Truth is reason—truth eternal / Tells me I’ve a mother there.”

Why don’t we talk of Heavenly Mother more? I do not know and see no reason for it. I have heard attempts to explain it, such as that Heavenly Father cherishes her so much he doesn’t want her to be talked about in vain, or disrespectfully. I don’t buy that. Just as I love my wife…and want all our children to know how wonderful she is and how critical she is in my life and the family’s…I think Heavenly Father wants us to know our Heavenly Mother too, and be more like her. I think he depends on her, not rules over her.

Prophets have taught that our heavenly parents work together for the salvation of the human family. “We are part of a divine plan designed by Heavenly Parents who love us,” taught Elder M. Russell Ballard of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. President Harold B. Lee stated, “We forget that we have a Heavenly Father and a Heavenly Mother who are even more concerned, probably, than our earthly father and mother, and that influences from beyond are constantly working to try to help us when we do all we can.”

As Elder Dallin H. Oaks of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles has said, “Our theology begins with heavenly parents. Our highest aspiration is to be like them.”

So…I guess as I try to talk about it as naturally as I can…why do I see others not have comfort with that? I think it is like Ray and other said…they are afraid to veer off the script…and without revelation to back up things…they may not be sure they are allowed to talk about.

And that has been something I’ve learned with my church experience…that it is ok to wander off the script and be ok with my status in the church. I have learned things…I don’t need to have priesthood validate what I feel is right in my heart. So…I put this topic in with many other things I believe but others don’t seem comfortable with. I try to be respectful about their feelings only to the degree that I think things need to be said sometimes regardless…depending on the situation. What others wish to avoid talking about because they are uncomfortable is about them and where they are at. I try to be kind about it…but there are times it doesn’t matter to me as much as saying what is right to me.

Like I said…if I talk about it “matter of fact”-like…I don’t seem to get reactions from anyone. I mostly feel people agree with me. I say…let’s talk about it more. Especially to our kids who should feel comfortable with the idea.

Part of the church experience is going to deal with others and practice how to interact with them, despite where they are, or where I am…but come together despite our differences.

[Anonymous]

Lately I’ve been feeling really overwhelmed by the maleness of everything in scripture, lessons, etc. My daughter during sacrament meeting pulled my shoulder down to whisper in my ear ” Why do only men get to be in charge?” Purely innocent, honest question from an observant little girl. My heart sunk. I told her I don’t know, but I don’t think it is because God wants it to be that way. Not good enough. Recently I was at Deseret Book and noticed a book with a painting on the cover of Heavenly mother and Father. The book speaks of Heavenly Mother by name throughout. It even says women are created in the image of Heavenly Mother. It’s not a book about her, it is a book about family. I’ve been reading it to my daughters over breakfast and it has been a bit of a balm to my soul. It’s a book geared toward kids called Our Heavenly Family Our Earthly Family if you are interested in checking it out, even if just to take in the artists portrayal of a divine female. It gave me the glimmer of hope I needed to keep showing up.

[Author]

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