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What I like about RSR is that the facts that seem to be available to a historian are presented in what seems to be an honest and fair way. Bushman does not seem to take a position, but lays out what seems to have happened. SD…I know you’re not saying Joseph Smith was like the deranged madman Brian David Mitchell, who dragged Elizabeth by force and subjected her to 9 months of hell. There is just zero comparison between Fanny Alger and Elizabeth Smart.
I can understand people wondering if Joseph was justifying carnal urges in a deceitful way…it’s one possible position. But reading RSR doesn’t give me the impression that is what Joseph was doing when put into context of other things Joseph was doing, nor did the facts make Bushman lose his faith.
Perhaps Holy Cow can share what he thought when he gets around to reading it. I just liked how Bushman presented things, and left the reader to make up his/her own mind on what it says about Joseph. It helped me see Joseph as much more human, and that prophets work things out as they go (which is not always clean and neat).
I had a slightly different take on RSR, but I’ve still got about 50 or so more pages to go before I’m finished reading it. Subject for another thread I guess. SD, it sounds like I’m in the same place with Joseph Smith as you are. Like, LookingHard said, I kind of put off researching polygamy in the beginning as well. My search started with temples. I began reading everything I could find about ancient Hebrew symbolism, ancient rites and rituals, and what happened in the temples at the time of Christ. When my research eventually turned to Joseph Smith and the history of the church, I still tried to keep it focused on temples. But once you start looking at Joseph Smith’s life and church history, polygamy quickly becomes the proverbial elephant in the room that you’re going to have to acknowledge eventually. Without having read RSR, I can’t comment on that yet. But, one of my favorites has been “Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power.” I’m sure most of you have read it already, but for any who haven’t, this book is almost 700 pages and literally half of the book is the Notes and References. Very well researched and very thorough! And it’s only the first book in a two-part series! Anyway, I tend to see Joseph’s polygamy similar to SilentDawning. It seems like it started out as an excuse for his relationship with Fanny Alger, and then with other women. But, I think as time went on, it became more than that. With the dynastic-type marriages, it seems like he started using it to increase his position of power. Being the leader of the church wasn’t enough for him. He wanted people to adore him and worship him. In “In Sacred Loneliness,” I’ve enjoyed learning about the lives of his wives, but in every chapter, the most uncomfortable part is where Joseph comes to the girl, or a member of her family, telling them that if they don’t marry him they’ll be responsible for the destruction of their family, their prophet, the church, or whatever else. And if they do marry him, then they’ll guarantee the salvation of their entire family. Oh, and don’t forget that angel with the flaming sword… The emotional strong-arm tactics that he used on these women absolutely disgusts me! And I think it was about more than just his carnal desires. It may have started out as that with Fanny Alger, but it became more than that as time went on. Like when he approached Heber C Kimball and told him that the Lord was requiring Heber to give Joseph his wife, Vilate. This broke Heber’s heart and caused a significant emotional tug-of-war inside of Heber’s head. Can you imagine the stress you’d go through if the prophet came to you and said that the Lord spoke to him and told him that you must give him your wife?! Anyway, when Heber finally felt like a broken man, and brought his wife to Joseph to deliver her up, Joseph told him it was just a test. And then compared it to Abraham offering his wife, Sarah, to the pharaoh. That’s not much of a comparison, but I really believe that by this point Joseph really did see himself as equal, if not higher than, the pharaoh. He liked being in that position of having everybody obey him, and I personally believe that most of the things he started to implement by the time they were in Nauvoo were all about power. I can’t help feeling that he got some twisted pleasure out of knowing that Heber and his wife, Vilate, were going through this agony, and then to finally watch Heber come and offer him his wife. Then, instead of taking Heber’s wife, he settled for his 14 year old daughter, Helen Mar Kimball. As if that’s any better. It makes me sick to think about what he put people through, and I can’t find any reason the Lord would ever ask a prophet to do things like that. Brigham Young just picked up right where Joseph left off with the lust for power.
And that’s just the polygamy topic. Then there are all of the other things that Joseph started to increase his power and authority: Council of 50, the Danites, sending men on missions whenever and wherever he wanted (sometimes opening up an opportunity for him to marry their wives while they were gone), Quorum of the Anointed, 2nd Anointings, the Nauvoo Legion (with himself as the Lieutenant General, of course), running for President of the United States, requiring the church members to build him a house, and then I believe (personal opinion here) that he started the temple ordinances as one more way to tie people to the church and to hang their eternal state (and the eternal salvation of their entire family) on the temple ceremonies.
Okay, sorry about the rant! I’m out of hot air for now.
‘ Quote:SD…I know you’re not saying Joseph Smith was like the deranged madman Brian David Mitchell, who dragged Elizabeth by force and subjected her to 9 months of hell. There is just zero comparison between Fanny Alger and Elizabeth Smart.
I know I was taking a risk when I said that. Joseph wasn’t deranged like Brian Mitchell. But the thought occurred to me repeatedly when I read about Fanny Alger, my wife shared Charlie Chaplin’s approach of marrying young, attractive women for a short period of time, and how being married seems to justify the satisfaction of urges that would otherwise be considered adulterous. I reminded me of the problem Utah priesthood leaders had with young adults “eloping” to Las Vegas, getting married, having as much sex as they wanted, and then getting divorced that weekend. It seems this pattern has been used to satisfy lustful desires and keep people believing they are acting within the bounds of propriety, when in fact, it’s all about personal, physical satisfaction.
Quote:I can understand people wondering if Joseph was justifying carnal urges in a deceitful way…it’s one possible position. But reading RSR doesn’t give me the impression that is what Joseph was doing when put into context of other things Joseph was doing, nor did the facts make Bushman lose his faith.
I went looking for different sources, and one source indicated JS married a lot of teenagers in the beginning. But Bushman indicates Fanny was the only one who was that young. I don’t think it helps the JS case if there were a ton of 14 to 17 year olds in it. My wife was 18 when I met her, and 19 when I married her. I got a number of raised eyebrows because I was 28 at the time….if there were a lot of them in that age group, I would really wonder even more.
Just for precision: There were 4 young teenagers. There also were 4 women in their 50s, if my memory is correct. The average age was around 28-32, which actually is significantly higher than the average for that time.
That doesn’t prove a thing about motivation or revelation or anything else – but it does refute the idea that he was a pedophile out to have sex with as many young girls as possible.
Holy Cow wrote:Anyway, when Heber finally felt like a broken man, and brought his wife to Joseph to deliver her up, Joseph told him it was just a test.
I had this listed, in my head, as another reason for using the plural marriage doctrine — to prove the loyalty of the people who professed to be faithful in the church. To prove the loyalty of people he would appoint to key positions.
There are times when I wondered if the Fanny Alger thing was a gateway. JS resorted to the multiple wives concept to get himself out of a bind due to his attraction to Fanny. In the process, he saw that he would not lose supporters by introducing the multiple wives concept — which has a number of benefits including a) variety in physical relationships b) proof of faith and commitment c) the potential for internal growth in the church d) longevity of a person’s name/seed e) justification for indiscretions and f) variety in skills within households.
It’s odd — many very good people appear to have bought into the concept, so it appears that when couched in morality or doctrine, what is normally considered adultery becomes acceptable even in the eyes of the pure hearted.
[Admin Note: I think we’ve thread-jacked Holy Cow’s introduction by talking about Joseph Smith and RSR and Fanny Alger. I will copy this to start a new thread under History and Doctrine Discussion so we can keep the discussion going, but leave HC’s intro to be about him. Keep the discussion going on JS by posting on the other thread by following this link….
http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6156 ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6156 Welcome Holy Cow! I love your picture. It truly captures the initial shock of a faith crisis.
Roy wrote:Welcome Holy Cow!
I love your picture. It truly captures the initial shock of a faith crisis.
Ha! Glad you caught that! He needs a little thought bubble saying, “Brigham Young said WHAT??! Holy Cow!!”
Holy Cow wrote:He needs a little thought bubble saying, “Brigham Young said WHAT??! Holy Cow!!”
😆 BwahahaHeber13 wrote:Holy Cow wrote:He needs a little thought bubble saying, “Brigham Young said WHAT??! Holy Cow!!”
😆 BwahahaDid BY every say anything that raised an eyebrow?
I like the picture also. I guess my picture shows me a bit more as an elderly silverback. If the shoe fits!
Hahaha, welcome, Holy Cow! Your username and picture are quite the delight. 
I’m a little late at this, but welcome. Your avatar looks like me when I found out about all the historical stuff 😆 Holy cow! Your introduction captured much of what I am feeling now. Welcome and I look forward to hearing more from you. It’s nice to know that there are so many others like me out there! FaithfulSkeptic wrote:It’s nice to know that there are so many others like me out there!
There are more than we realize. Probably more right in your ward than you realize. Just needs to be a forum to be safe to express it….and…ta-dah! StayLDS.com
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