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@TomHaws: I was working on a review of the book Rix presented “Codependent No More”. I got frustrated because there’s too much good stuff in the book to summarize.
I’ve probably said it too much on this forum/site but that book will change your life. I know it did mine and it did for everyone else I’ve ever talked to that read it.
There is a “dark side” to self-sacrificing and service: we’re human and want to be thanked, validated, rewarded for what we do vis-a vis self-sacrifice and service. If you are a person who truly does everything for the right reasons, then we’d probably call you “Jesus Christ”. If you’re not, then you may sometimes do things for the wrong reason and this is where the codependent cycle begins, and it always ends with feelings of low self-worth, bitterness, resentment, shame, and self-pity.
In reality, the idea of gaining emotional health by breaking the cycle of codependency is not to be selfish, rather it’s to be truly self-less in one’s actions, intentions, and motivations, in any and all human relationships. Because one is doing these things out of unconditional love, without regard to reward, praise, thanks, or validation.
I hate to beat the dead horse, but I have to absolutely agree with Swimordie on Codep No More. But I would add that I was particularly helped/changed/liberated by her following book “Language of Letting Go.” There have been times in my reading where I just felt like every latter-day saint should have a copy because I think sometimes we really don’t know what is caring vs. caretaking or perfectionistic vs. progressing. I find that Codep. robs us of so many things Christ would have us feel and be. And the more I study it, I really think Melody Beattie has such a great understanding of Christlike Charity. It makes “Do unto others, as you do yourself” take on a whole new meaning. Anyway….I yeild the floor back to the main issues at hand.
swimordie wrote:In reality, the idea of gaining emotional health by breaking the cycle of codependency is not to be selfish, rather it’s to be truly self-less in one’s actions, intentions, and motivations, in any and all human relationships. Because one is doing these things out of unconditional love, without regard to reward, praise, thanks, or validation.
WOW! That is a profound statement. Thanks so much for sharing what I was trying to grasp.
When I read Rix comment:
Rix wrote:It is only when we learn to truly put ourselves first, and not feel the least bit guilty about doing so, that we can find our ultimate bliss.
I got what he was saying – but at the same time I sensed a deeper dimension than the two dimensional words may express. I could sense that truly putting ourselves first will make us that much more healthy and capable of serving others…
And then your post just nailed it smack on the head!
Thanks for that!
I’d like a chance to drink some milk in HP Group. The whiskey they normally drink often is WAY too strong. 
swimordie wrote:@TomHaws:
In reality, the idea of gaining emotional health by breaking the cycle of codependency is not to be selfish, rather it’s to be truly self-less in one’s actions, intentions, and motivations, in any and all human relationships.
Because one is doing these things out of unconditional love, without regard to reward, praise, thanks, or validation. Boy that’s powerful! And I think it’s hard for “lower stage” folks to understand, but as it relates to substance abuse, there is a common family dynamic that points to the addict’s spouse/parent enabling the user in one way or another. During counseling, we find that the spouse often “cannot” see the addict suffer, so they struggle to set appropriate boundaries. But when we dig deeper it is a lack of self love on the part of the spouse where she/he feels the need to be accepted by the other, and that “other” learns this and pushes the buttons to instill enough guilt to get what “he” wants. This is the codependency cycle.
As it relates to spirituality, as one develops self love, they can behave with others in ways that are best for them…not needing the personal praise. IOW, when one is “right with God,” we don’t need another person to tell us we’re okay. That is the ultimate spirituality.
IMHO.
Orson wrote:
I got what he was saying – but at the same time I sensed a deeper dimension than the two dimensional words may express. I could sense that truly putting ourselves first will make us that much more healthy and capable of serving others…
Absolutely! And for the right reasons!
Heber13 wrote:
I haven’t had the best of days lately…and so I wanted to put my thoughts down in hopes I can get some support or guidance that might help me. [Warning: When I start that way…I can sense a large post is coming…😯 sorry for that…but I just need to try to express myself.]There are times I can’t seem to let go of wanting to go back to my stage 3 confident faith in the LDS church, where I felt I was on a path to being a better person, and there seemed to be callings and inspirational church teachings that reconfirmed my footsteps that I was doing good.
But I don’t think I can go back there anymore. So I have tried to tell myself by being in Stage 4 and letting go of some things,
I am becoming a better person, just along a new path. But I am still ashamed to let others know how I feel (wife, kids, siblings, bishop). In my younger years, I would describe someone acting like I’m acting as a person without a strong enough testimony, not enough faith, and too selfish to let God lead me back to obedience and safety within the church.I think others will undoubtedly think that of me if I opened up. Those on this forum who read my posts probably can tell I still believe in God, in His Plan, in the Atonement, in the Book of Mormon, and that Joseph Smith was a prophet. I have allowed myself to be more open towards what I think about the church and its source of truth and that there is also great truth and godliness to be found outside the church. Still, the church is a fine organization and run by people really trying to do what is right (sprinkled in with a few whackos whom I love for making things interesting!).
But Fowler describes Stage 5 faith as:
Quote:“One in stage 5 is willing to be converted by other ways of thinking. This does not mean that the person is wishy washy or uncommited to one’s own truth tradition. Conjunctive faith’s “radical openness” to other traditions comes from the belief that “reality” cannot be held entirely in one tradition and spills over into many traditions.
“The new strength of this stage comes in the rise of the ironic imagination  a capacity to see and be in one’s or one’s group’s most powerful meanings, while simultaneously recognizing that they are relative, partial, and inevitably distorting apprehensions of trancendent reality.”
I want to be comfortable in my new way of opening up to new traditions to take my prior level of faith to a higher level and understand and tolerate things in a more productive and loving way, whether or not others understand what I’m doing.But I am currently really stuck on obedience to my mormon commandments. Tithing, the Word of Wisdom, and Home Teaching are nagging at me. I’ve backed off taking things so literally in the church, yet many mormon commandments like these
arespecific and literal. While I have tried to tell myself that it can be a good thing to just live these commandments anyway, since they are not bad things, and I can try to understand in more meaning how they are all spiritual in nature (like how Valoel and Ray and others describe doing it for the right reasons),
I honestly have lost my desire to want to do these at all.1. I have started considering
notliving those anymore because I don’t think I have to 2. But when I ask myself “why?”, my honest answer is simply because I don’t want to make the effort for something I don’t believe in.
3. But that makes me feel I really am “wishy-washy” to my religion.
4. Then I tell myself to let go of guilt and just do what feels right to me…don’t live them if you don’t want to because I honestly don’t have the burning desire to want to live them. Be a buffet mormon and just live the laws I feel I can live right now, and let go of the rest until I can reevaluate it later.
5. But then I still feel ashamed that I’m not strong enough to stay the course even when I don’t want to. Deep down, I kinda feel like I should want to do these things if I’m a true follower of Christ. If these are the times I’m being tested…then buffet style will only get me a C+ or B- … not a great result.
Am I justifying mediocrity?6. I still feel worried the bishop will put me in the category of “unworthy and weak spiritually” – which will lead to me being less and less involved in the ward.
7. I think of how serving people makes me happy and feeling needed in the ward makes me happy. I shouldn’t care what the bishop thinks, and just do what I want and serve people outside of callings or outside of church.
8. But I am still worried that I am justifying lazy and selfish behavior, which will only lead to further justifications and loss of the spirit, until one day I am not able to see my daughters married in the temple, or ordain my sons to the priesthood.
9. And then my worries snowball, and I worry my kids will see my lack of diligence, follow my example of not trying in church or making sacrifices personally, and if they head down a path of sin and destruction…those sins would be on my head.
Why can’t I let go of my feelings that because I’m not a part of the ward and living obediently to things that don’t spiritually effect me, I’m not being a good enough person?
What guidance can you give me on how to work through this? I want to be open minded to my new beliefs that all truth is not found in the church, and not all church leaders are always inspired, and not all church teachings are from God…yet I want to feel comfortable in a conjunctive faith whether I decide to live the law of tithing anymore or take a break from it for a while. There are times I want to throw in the towel, and other times I want to rededicate myself with renewed vigor…but most of the time I’m just unhappy that I don’t know what I want and that I may be justifying my selfish desires and becoming more lost in my journey.
I praise you for your threadcromancy, AmyJ. I have been feeling very similarly to Heber in his opening post lately. My situation is obviously different, but I very much find myself struggling with finding a middle way. Part of me wants to leave, but the other part of me feels drawn to stay. For me, it’s almost as if it makes no logical sense to be active LDS, yet it feels comfortable and happy… But yet some aspects of the church frustrate me or keep me from being happy… But then again, others bring me peace.
I feel as if few women in the church would accept me for who I am because I’m not the gung-ho priesthood holder they might expect from a husband… But I also feel that maybe I’m blowing that out proportion and it’s not as big of a deal as I think it will be. OTOH, I feel I would have more prospects by opening things up to outside the church, but I don’t want to disappoint my parents (I still need to get over that) or feel like I gave away my birthright for a mess of pottage.
I’m beginning to feel like I might need to extend out my “decision day”, but at the same time, I am sick and tired of putting on the mask and just wish it felt safe to open up about my faith crisis. There’s this one guy in my ward that has no issues with being open (ish?) about his faith crisis, and frankly, I wish I could be like that.
I guess I’m tired of having to be what I think others expect me to be. I either need to change my perspective or stop caring.
I wrote a long response to Heber’s that was more tailored, but the board ate it and I did not realize that… Maybe another day…
Word of advice to everyone: If you write a long comment, do it in Word and then paste it here. That way you won’t lose it if the system here times out. Old Timer wrote:
Word of advice to everyone: If you write a long comment, do it in Word and then paste it here. That way you won’t lose it if the system here times out.
I’ve learn always to “copy” the text, before I respond.
Yeah, it’s happened to me and it is frustrating to say the least. I do what Dande does, but Curt’s way works as well. Heber, I have some thoughts to share on this but I am really interested to know how you feel about these issues now and how you got from point A to point B. I second Roy’s request for an update from Heber, but I also do have something to share that has helped me in regards to the topic. I think the main things that have helped me with this perspective is time and experience, lackluster as they may seem. Once, after a breakup, a friend told me that I’d look back one day and not feel any sadness for this moment. At the time I was horrified. It was still so fresh, and not the result I wanted, so I was hurting. However, through time and filling my life with other things, I came to see that she was correct, and though I didn’t appreciate it at the time, she was supporting my overall happiness.
When we learn to change our values or perspectives, it’s often very jostling, confusing, and (at least for me) anxiety-ridden. One of my favorite bloggers and authors is Mark Manson, who has this to say on the matter (edited for curse words, he loves profanity):
Quote:It’s not easy because you’re going to feel like a loser, a fraud…at first. You’re going to be nervous. You’re going to freak out. You may get pissed off at your wife or your friends or your father in the process. These are all side effects of changing your values….But they are inevitable.
It’s simple but really, really hard.
Let’s look at some of these side effects. You’re going to feel uncertain; I guarantee it. “Should I really give this up? Is this the right thing to do?”
Giving up a value you’ve depended on for years is going to feel disorienting, as if you don’t really know right from wrong anymore. This is hard,
but it’s normal.
Next, you’ll feel like a failure. You’ve spent half your life measuring yourself by that old value, so when you change your priorities, change your metrics, and stop behaving in the same way, you’ll fail to meet that old, trusted metric and thus immediately feel like some sort of fraud or nobody. This is also normal and also uncomfortable.
What I appreciate so much about his words is the validation of how uncertainty is uncomfortable. I think it’s easy and understandable to want a way out when we don’t feel good, or when we feel pain, but I think that sustaining the pain in these situations is worth it because of what we believe and hope is on the other side. Certainly we’ve already felt the pain of our current situation for long enough, so even if this new direction doesn’t work out we’ll have more information and experience than when we started. Personally, in the long run, I’d prefer to have a string of “failures” and accompanying experiences than a never ending stream of “What if…what if…?”
I think what makes this venture particularly difficult in the Mormon community is that there is often the folklore/doctrine of what Satan tries to get us to do and cleverly disguises as intellectual pursuits, experimentation, or tolerance. I think that there’s a self-righteousness of sorts that can occur when people reactivate, a “We told you so”. I think the fear of not wanting to appear stupid, prideful, or even simply against the grain inhibits people from being a little less certain about their values. In short, I think Mormons are acting like humans, but have embellished some of their behavior in religious morals which makes things more complex, but not so different from most other religions.
DancingCarrot wrote:
I think what makes this venture particularly difficult in the Mormon community is that there is often the folklore/doctrine of what Satan tries to get us to do and cleverly disguises as intellectual pursuits, experimentation, or tolerance. I think that there’s a self-righteousness of sorts that can occur when people reactivate, a “We told you so”.
I am imagining a scenario where a person with doubts is treated so badly by the church community that they eventually come to resent and even be openly hostile towards the church (anti-Mormon). Then the church members pat themselves on the back and hold up this person as someone who let themselves be infected by Satan’s lies – as their anger and wild accusations clearly demonstrate. Self fulfilling prophecy.
😈
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