- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
How much of the discipline efforts or this “Strengthening Church Members Committee” is about strengthening the member, and how much is about strengthening the church for the benefit of the other members? 20%/80%? I think that church discipline is supposed to serve a purpose to help the member and the least useful is to use it to punish. Just ignoring the person that has an agenda and no interest in changing is far more effective. It recognizes that the person has cut themselves off and as I said before denies them the forum and in some cases the martyrdom that they yearn for. I’ve only missed one Sunstone NW in the last 10 or so years and haven’t heard anything from or about Murphy since all this business was in the news. I think the PR spin is that excommunication is a way to help a member understand the seriousness of the sin. (Some members may sincerely believe that.) However, few people who get excommunicated return to the church, so it isn’t an effective form on helping someone repent. Excommunication is really a way to protect the church and isolate the individual. If a person is perceived as a threat, “it is better for one man to perish than a whole [church] to dwindle in unbelief.”
I agree, MH. I also think it is a consequence the church can enforce. If there were no consequences, how many ways can you try to tell an individual to repent because it is the “right thing to do”? At some point, the church just draws a line in the sand, and works with individuals to stay away from that line (with sincere love and good intention). The excommunication is part of the equation when lines are drawn. From that perspective, I do see it as a way to help individuals by setting boundaries, consequences, and a framework within which to work. God may have different boundaries for His love. mormonheretic wrote:I think the PR spin is that excommunication is a way to help a member understand the seriousness of the sin. (Some members may sincerely believe that.) However, few people who get excommunicated return to the church, so it isn’t an effective form on helping someone repent.
Excommunication is really a way to protect the church and isolate the individual. If a person is perceived as a threat, “it is better for one man to perish than a whole [church] to dwindle in unbelief.”
This is an astute observation….a VERY astute observation. I too see excommunication as a way of protecting the innocent and the Church, not as something that will help someone see the gravity of their sins; disfellowshipment or probation does that better, in my view, and only then in the case where the person is having trouble being repentent.
It’s amazing what a good education you can get on this forum. When John Dehlin says in his utube video that these members who leave the church are not apostates but really intelligent, deep thinkers who want to know the truth, I think of this forum. I am so confused about the lds church right now. So many things that bother me, yet so many wonderful things about the church. So much cognitive dissonace. Deep down, I think most of us really want the church to be true and Christ’s restored church, yet this world has so many deceptions out there, that we have to be cautious. Trust is such a huge issue, and without personal revelation, I cannot discern what is man’s falliablity and God’s word through man.
I want so much for the church to be a group of integrity. I felt that in Hugh B. Brown and LeGrand Richards who I meet on my mission. A questioning spirit was so encouraged when I was young and it made me feel the church was confident and had nothing to hide. I do not feel the same way today.
When I lived in Iowa during the vote on gay marriage in the Iowa Senate, I was privy to information from our stake president who was told from church headquarters for members to stay low and not demonstrate against it because of the prop 8 issue and how it back lashed on members. Does that mean that the church changes when things get tough (polygmany, blacks, gays, intellectuals, feminists, working mom’s) . I just begin to wonder how inspired church leaders really are? Sorry, if I sound so skeptical, but I am.
Bridget — these kinds of questions are at the root of my own trials right now. In spite of spiritual experiences in the Church and such, and revelation that I should join, I have doubts precisely like yours that interfere when it comes time to make big sacrifices. Businesses react by changing their policies to fit legal pressure, to stop the loss of customers, threats to reputation or assets, etcetera. I think backlash against members might qualify as a temporal matter if the Church decides to back down when core doctrinal issues are before the populace that they previously stood up to. I guess I’ve been overly optimistic/idealistic in expecting the Church to somehow be above this. That’s why I have posted threads asking others to help me see reasons why the Church SHOULD be “permitted” to act like any other temporal organization even though it has a divine head and therefore, in my view, should have access to brilliant solutions that are effective and beautiful and spiritual and synergistic. My conclusion is that I will never be happy as long as I expect the Church to somehow be different than other temporal organizations in the telestial world. It’s a hard pill to swallow.
I think about some of those types of questions a lot also, bridget and SD. Perhaps this is why we congregate together, we understand each other and identify with the thoughts and questions. I am beginning to be more comfortable with these feelings (paradox, seeing the good in the church and the things that deeply disturb me, etc), and starting to see that it is ok to be me and be in the church. Others may not think I’m being faithful, or worry I’m on a path that is leading in a dangerous direction, or think I’m wrapped up in historical details too much, and completely disagree with me.
But I am who I am. I am not questioning because I want to sin or be rebellious. God knows my heart. He has heard my prayers and my questions, and has allowed me to move forward in my path/journey without sending cherubim and flaming swords to stop me. I am not yelling at church and trying to disturb others in how they worship.
So all in all, I am feeling more relaxed at just saying, “this is who I am. And I don’t need to be a different kind of Mormon, I am doing what everyone else is doing…trying to find God and living according to my conscience.”. I pray the spirit will guide me, and I can practice loving others, especially my family and friends at church and in my neighborhood. I don’t NEED to be different, or NEED to resolve my valid concerns before I can go back to participating in church. I can practice to be Christ-like while participating in an imperfect church with imperfect people like myself.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.