Strict Temple Requirements – good or bad idea?

[Anonymous]

GBSmith wrote:

I guess you just have to decide how important a cup of coffee is or if the church is worth donating to.

I don’t think it’s quite that simple GB. We are talking about, at least in the terms of TBMs, ones ETERNAL SALVATION. The difference between going to heaven and going to hell. Should a cup of coffee keep one out of the CK? Who has the right to make that decision for all of mankind – that “drinking a cup of coffee will send one to hell”? I guess some here would say that Pres. Grant did? I’m not convinced. Of course, I don’t believe that temples are necessary for salvation to begin with, but 85% of the active church members probably do. This kind of statement is why Utah, and Mormons in general, are overburdened with so much unnecessary guilt. At least that is my experience. I feel bad for them/us.

[Anonymous]

cwald wrote:

So what have we done? Exactly what Spock said – we have developed a system that requires one TO PAY TO GET TO HEAVEN. According to the current teachings of the LDS chruch, ONE MUST PAY THE THE ORGANIZATION 10% to receive salvation and “get to heaven.”

You also have to be honest in your dealings with your fellow man, take care of obligations to your family, live the law of chastity, not affiliate or support apostate groups, etc.. I think that singling out tithing and the WoW and using the word “control” change the argument from a difference of opinion to polemic. I’ve had my calling and election made sure and it’s not the CK. But at the same time I don’t see that making the temple less than what it is in the LDS theology is going to make anything better. I think it is as simple as how important is a cup of coffee because if you’re a believer then it’s not an issue and if you’re not then you’ve got decisions to make.

[Anonymous]

I don’t think the temple rquirements are too strict, and I am saying that as someone who self-evaluates myself out of that group. I do not seek a current temple recommend, and haven’t had one in 5+ years. I don’t consider myself “unworthy” or not accepted by God, but I do not feel that I comply close enough with the standards they set.

I think it should be hard, that gives it more powerful meaning and symbolic affect IMO. BUT I think the temple should be seens as a place people are excelling to go to (the positive view), instead of seeing that people not going are failing (the negative view). I can totally dig the idea of going through a spiritual and physical purification process in advance before one goes, even if they have the “rubber stamp” of a 2-year recommend.

The temple is as special and holy as we make it. That is my summary.

I agree with a lot of the analysis, both pro and con, above. So I won’t rehash my thoughts on that.

[Anonymous]

mormonheretic wrote:

…The caste system comment strikes me as someone who wants to have their cake and eat it too. I’d love to get booster club access to the football team too, but I can’t afford it…

GBSmith wrote:

I guess you just have to decide how important a cup of coffee is or if the church is worth donating to.

GBSmith wrote:

…I think that singling out tithing and the WoW and using the word “control” change the argument from a difference of opinion to polemic. …I don’t see that making the temple less than what it is in the LDS theology is going to make anything better. I think it is as simple as how important is a cup of coffee because if you’re a believer then it’s not an issue and if you’re not then you’ve got decisions to make.

Coffee and alcohol are not very important to me at all I just don’t believe that they are any kind of real sin by themselves that members should be given a guilt trip about. Sure I think the Church is worth donating some money to just not a full 10% of my income, but I don’t know if I could simply donate less than that without feeling awkward and embarrassed about it because it’s not what they expect.

I don’t think it’s really quite as simple as just deciding how important the Church is or not in many cases because of the whole eternal family doctrine. For example, if I just say I’m not interested in ever going back to the temple it will upset my wife because she thinks this is important. I guess I could just play along with their little game but in the back of my mind I will resent it because I don’t think these requirements are really worthwhile and the more people conform to this standard the more it encourages them to keep on insisting that all these requirements are absolutely necessary. It feels almost like emotional blackmail and a no-win situation.

[Anonymous]

I like the fact the church has some standards or goals that can help us strive to commit our lives to something, and ask us to sacrifice to push ourselves to become better. I don’t want a religion that just tells me everything is just fine and we don’t need to try to be better. I need to be challenged and stretched…I don’t think I do that on my own.

I think the temple helps us set our eyes on the spiritual world and things of God, all in a symbolic way that we can internalize individually. It is made more special or sacred by the meaning we put on it.

I view it like a driver’s license…if you want to legally drive, you meet the requirements. If you don’t care about driving, don’t worry about it. It is not a perfect system for ensuring safe and responsible drivers, but it is one way to try to set driving standards and regulate the roads. Again, not perfect…but something is better than nothing.

DevilsAdvocate wrote:

I don’t think it’s really quite as simple as just deciding how important the Church is or not in many cases because of the whole eternal family doctrine. For example, if I just say I’m not interested in ever going back to the temple it will upset my wife because she thinks this is important.

Good point, DA. I think this is where it gets difficult when differing viewpoints in a relationship can cause conflict. Spouses having differing opinions or faith that something specific in a religion is critical for the entire salvation of the family creates a situation where differences need to be worked through. That’s not easy.

More growing experiences!!

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

Cadence, if you don’t really believe in the concept of the temple at all, why do you care about the requirements to attend?

I do not care for myself as an individual. I can take it or leave it as I choose. It is how it hurts families that bugs me. If your whole family is TBM then it is all great and good, but if they are not the concept is divisive.

Old-Timer wrote:

Would not having to pay tithing to attend get you there more often? Or, as you have said, is it that you just don’t want to pay tithing to attend temple sealings?

You just made my point. Of course paying tithing gets you to the temple. You need to get your monies worth. The question really is the temple suppose to be a reward for paying tithing. once again it is not the issue of paying tithing to get into the temple. It is the fact that supposedly the temple holds the keys to exaltation and you have to pay to get into the temple. Thus you have to pay for exaltation. You just can not spin it any other way.

Old-Timer wrote:

I pay tithing because I believe in the principle of tithing. I attend the temple because I believe in the principle of the temple – particularly the concept of having my heart knit to those who went before me.

Good for you. If it works for you then by all means do it, but respect for you ancestors has little to do with temple attendance to me personally.

Old-Timer wrote:

Sure, I don’t think temple ordinances actually are necessary for that to happen – or to gain exaltation. I believe God will do that regardless of our participation in the temple ceremonies. However, I really, really like the symbolism of sacrificing for those who have gone before – of having earthly ordinances that show our acceptance of a universal Atonement – of having a place set apart from the world for those who want symbolically and perhaps literally to enter the presence of God – etc.

I just have a different view. From your posts I perceive you put value in metaphysical things and symbolism. It brings you enlightenment of some kind. Personally I give small value to such concepts for myself. I find the nuance of symbolism and myythos more confusing than it is worth. I personally believe men attribute these metaphysical qualities to God and religion to help explain the unexplainable. Just a straight up answer would make more sense. If I do not get an answer then my logical conclusion is I did not need one.

[Anonymous]

Cadence wrote:

You just made my point. Of course paying tithing gets you to the temple. You need to get your monies worth. The question really is the temple suppose to be a reward for paying tithing. once agin it is not the issue of paying tithing to get into the temple. It is the fact that supposedly the temple holds the keys to exaltation and you have to pay to get into the temple. Thus you have to pay for exaltation. You just can not spin it any other way.

I’m not sure why you’re making money the issue. If you’re a tithe payer but not honest or chaste or don’t support your family and answer the questions honestly then you won’t get a recommend. Making it seem like you can buy a recommend just doesn’t wash.

Cadence wrote:

I do not care for myself as an individual. I can take it or leave it as I choose. It is how it hurts families that bugs me.

What your talking about is a couple where one holds certain beliefs and another doesn’t. If you’re “yolked unequally” then you have a decision to make about what’s most important for you. And I guess I’d need to see some data on how many are hurt before I would see it as something that needs to be changed.

As I said before I’m not a believer and have made my peace with where I’m going and what will be there when I get there. I’ve been a full tithe payer all my life and don’t expect it will get me anything more that a thanks and that’s fine with me.

[Anonymous]

GBSmith wrote:

[I’m not sure why you’re making money the issue. If you’re a tithe payer but not honest or chaste or don’t support your family and answer the questions honestly then you won’t get a recommend. Making it seem like you can buy a recommend just doesn’t wash.

I’m not sure he made it a money issue – it was just one example, and I think it, along with the WofW question are what we’ve been talking about recently — at least what I’ve been talking about that really, IMO, don’t belong and don’t really tell if one is “worthy” of anything. They weren’t in the TR process for the 100 years of the church history. Either we made a mistake the first 100 years, or we made a mistake the last 100 since we’ve added them?

Paying “tithing” to get to heaven is, IMO, not much different than what the Roman Catholic church did for 100s of years where they would sell redemption and forgiveness to anyone who could afford it.

I’m serious – how is what we TEACH any different. If a Mormon wants to earn salvation and go to the CK – they must pay for it. That is “our” belief. I am not trying to be belligerent – I’m asking for a good logical thought (not an apologetic) that will help me reconcile what I think is mistake and black eye within the church.

[Anonymous]

Sure there are other temple requirements. However, tithing is one requirement that the bishop pretty well KNOWS the answer before the interview. he has access to the stats – unlike the questions on chasity and Wofw which are done in “secret” mostly, and the faith issues which are personal. Tithing is NOT personal it fits a whole other category of questions.

[Anonymous]

cwald wrote:

Sure there are other temple requirements. However, tithing is one requirement that the bishop pretty well KNOWS the answer before the interview. he has access to the stats – unlike the questions on chasity and Wofw which are done in “secret” mostly, and the faith issues which are personal. Tithing is NOT personal it fits a whole other category of questions.

Unless you pay to Salt Lake directly, the bishop would not know about that.

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

cwald wrote:

Sure there are other temple requirements. However, tithing is one requirement that the bishop pretty well KNOWS the answer before the interview. he has access to the stats – unlike the questions on chasity and Wofw which are done in “secret” mostly, and the faith issues which are personal. Tithing is NOT personal it fits a whole other category of questions.

Unless you pay to Salt Lake directly, the bishop would not know about that.

Yes – and I plan doing so, but until I started surfing the blaggancle (risked visiting the “apostate” websites 😈 ) I didn’t even know such a thing existed BTW – does anyone have quick reference on how to get that set up? Is there a website link out there?

[Anonymous]

cwald wrote:

I’m serious – how is what we TEACH any different. If a Mormon wants to earn salvation and go to the CK – they must pay for it. That is “our” belief. I am not trying to be belligerent – I’m asking for a good logical thought (not an apologetic) that will help me reconcile what I think is mistake and black eye within the church.

I see what we teach as different in the sense that the indulgences at the time of Luther were guarantees that the purchase would release you from days in purgatory regardless of the sins you’d committed and the life you’ve led. If you pay tithing and expect it will excuse other sins and some how tilt the scale in your favor then IMO you’re mistaken about what’s expected of us. A bad person that’s a tithe payer is still a bad person and someone that gives for the wrong reason will be judged for his motives and not for the dollars.

I guess you have to decide if tithing is a commandment, not from the bishop or some other church leader but from God. If you believe it is along with the WoW, chastity, willingness to consecrate, etc. then it’s not the “church” that’s requiring it but God and if you’re a believer, you do it. Interestingly a true believer will do it for the sole reason that God has commanded it and not to score points or earn a spot in in the CK. We don’t earn salvation. If you’re a believer you see it as a free gift, a grace that all we have to do is to accept. I’m not a true believer but I have my reasons for trying to do some of these things. None of my actions have anything to do with buying my way into heaven because I don’t now and never have believed you can buy blessings by tithing or anything else. If you believe that God has nothing to do with it then all the talk about the CK and salvation is just talk and you’d be best giving the money to something or someone that does have your faith and trust. You just have to decide what you believe and why and then make some decisions.

[Anonymous]

GBSmith wrote:

I see what we teach as different in the sense that the indulgences at the time of Luther were guarantees that the purchase would release you from days in purgatory regardless of the sins you’d committed and the life you’ve led. If you pay tithing and expect it will excuse other sins and some how tilt the scale in your favor then IMO you’re mistaken about what’s expected of us. A bad person that’s a tithe payer is still a bad person and someone that gives for the wrong reason will be judged for his motives and not for the dollars.

Touche’

Quote:

I guess you have to decide if tithing is a commandment, not from the bishop or some other church leader but from God. If you believe it is along with the WoW, chastity, willingness to consecrate, etc. then it’s not the “church” that’s requiring it but God and if you’re a believer, you do it.

Yeah, that is THE problem then isn’t it. I don’t believe WofW and “tithing to the church” comes from god. I believe they are concepts of men.

I don’t put Chasity in the same category as WofW – EVER.

Quote:

We don’t earn salvation.

Oh really, and what church are we talking about? I know what you are saying, but if there is ANYONE on this board who can argue that the Mormon culture has not thoroughly ingrained this into people, and that we have not been taught and still do teach the concept that one has to EARN their salvation in the CK – I will eat my hat.

Quote:

Teach me what I must DO to live with him someday.

[Anonymous]

cwald wrote:

Oh really, and what church are we talking about? I know what you are saying, but if there is ANYONE on this board who can argue that the Mormon culture has not thoroughly ingrained this into people, and that we have not been taught and still do teach the concept that one has to EARN their salvation in the CK – I will eat my hat.

No argument from me there. I just think they’ve got it wrong.

[Anonymous]

cwald

There’s thread on the New Order Mormon site back in January about direct tithing payment. I found it by just googling direct tithing payment to lds church. Good luck.

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