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So in the Mia Maids class I attended (I’m a new yw secretary) the teacher had the girls read the sacrament versus and one girl asked why they used wine. I was anxious to hear the response. The teacher gave the same answer I “used to think.” That answer is: “wine back then was just grape juice.” So… I no longer believe this answer, but don’t know any historical facts regarding this. I am not a scholar of the bible, but the use of wine as an intoxicant is clear in the bible as well as the Book of Mormon. I but my tongue but wanted to challenge the girls thinking by telling them joseph smith drank it til the day he died, it was widely used in the church until roughly the 1920s prohibition, and was even used in the sacrament in the early days- even in the Salt Lake City temple sacrament of the apostles ( though I couldn’t remember we the year that changed). Any way… I was wondering if there was any truth to the myth if wine equating juice back in the day. And FYI, I didn’t say anything. I’m pretty new in the ward still and don’t know what my place is as a “leader” in shaking it up. Wine is fermented grape juice. In fact, a special property of grapes is that their juice will easily and spontaneously begin fermenting into an alcoholic beverage (wine). The skins of grapes contain small amounts of yeast that will start the process. That particular process is called “wild yeast fermentation.” All you have to do is leave a container of grape juice in a mildly warm, dark place. Yeast eat sugar and poop out alcohol 
So … before the VERY recent invention of refrigeration,
ALLgrape juice was at some stage of becoming wine and/or vinegar. In the English language, we have different words for wine and grape juice.
The translators of the King James Bible knew the difference between wine and grape juice when they translated the Hebrew, Greek and Latin into English.
The authors of the Old Testament (in Hebrew) knew the difference between wine and grape juice. They wrote what they meant.
The authors of the New Testament (in Greek and Aramaic) knew the difference between wine and grape juice. They wrote what they meant.
Joseph Smith, the author/translator of the Book of Mormon and Doctrine & Covenants, knew the difference between wine and grape juice. He wrote what he meant.
The word “wine” means what it means in the scriptures. Sure, there are more words in some of those languages to describe different types of “wine.” Some of those words could indicate weaker forms with less alcohol, but they all refer to some level of fermented grape juice (which means it contains some level of alcohol). Actually, normal fruit juices you buy in the grocery store all contain at least some trace levels of alcohol. You can’t reasonable stop this process from happening even in modern harvest/bottling processes.
Our current LDS interpretation of the Word of Wisdom, specifically the strong and very strict prohibition against any consumption of alcohol, has only been around since the 1930’s. Our own church history records, and the personal journals of faithful and active members in the past, describe to occasional consumption of alcoholic beverages. The prohibition just didn’t have the same extreme prominence in our culture prior to the 1930’s.
Now … that isn’t an excuse to start drinking alcohol NOW. And it doesn’t mean that alcohol can’t be a problematic thing to consume. Not drinking alcohol is certainly an important part of contemporary LDS religious dogma, and our current interpretation of what it means to follow the Word of Wisdom. But it hasn’t always been that way. You are correct in that. And I don’t personally think it’s a problem, spiritually for me, to know that Joseph Smith or even that Jesus drank wine occasionally. Like most things in life, it’s more complex an issue than just Yes or No.
There is a reason the water was turned into wine. Grape juice, although it ferments quickly in a hot climate, does not immediately become wine. The fact the water became wine, was a miracle, because the content should have taken some time to ferment. It is worth pointing out that while the “it was weaker claim” is bull, that we do have stronger wines now. We have brandies, and port, and wine that has %s in excess of 20%, by non-fortification methods.
Kcarp, Welcome.
You are absolutely right. It’s important to note that wine was used frequently in the bible as a metaphor for the Spirit of God. It’s not hard to imagine why, if the drink contains alcohol. Jesus’ detractors called him a gluttonous man and a winebibber. The ‘juice’ belief is erroneous. However, I certainly wouldn’t challenge a teacher during a lesson.
There’s nothing wrong with using water instead of wine, in our sacrament. Water is also a great symbol (John 4). In a way, bread and water symbolize our dependence on God for spiritual nourishment (John 4, John 6, Matthew 5:6). Bread and wine work better as a physical/spiritual symbol… body/soul, almost like a yin and yang, or salvation of our body and spirit through the dual sense of the atonement.
The WoW is a teaching of our time, not Jesus’ or Joseph Smith’s even. It was largely instituted as a way to be more civilized in our mannerisms. I think of the prohibition of alcohol as a subtle way to preach against drunkenness. We’ve codified it into ‘no alcohol’ which is simpler to monitor, because it is black & white. No drunkenness would be a much harder rule to follow or measure. Throughout time, religious adherents have had customs that they have followed in order to establish discipline. This is one of ours. In Jesus’ time, there were others. There is nothing inherently wrong with wine. WE don’t drink it, in the same way that Jews of the Bible didn’t eat pork. Yet Jesus drank wine and we eat pork.
Word-for-word what On Own Now said. Quote:The fact the water became wine, was a miracle, because the content should have taken some time to ferment.
Well, that and it was turning WATER into wine, not grape juice into wine.
This reminds me of one of my favorite mission stories. Two sets of elders were sharing a flat and taking turns cooking meals. One of the elders saw a box labeled “vino” at the store for about a dollar and said, “There’s no way that’s wine. It must be grape juice.” He bought it and poured out 4 glasses of it to go with the meal he had set out. When the other companionship got in from the very warm day’s work, the District Leader was very thirsty, so he picked up the glass and took a huge gulp of it. He spit it out all over and said, “That’s wine! And it’s not even GOOD wine!”
On Own Now wrote:The WoW is a teaching of our time, not Jesus’ or Joseph Smith’s even. It was largely instituted as a way to be more civilized in our mannerisms. I think of the prohibition of alcohol as a subtle way to preach against drunkenness. We’ve codified it into ‘no alcohol’ which is simpler to monitor, because it is black & white. No drunkenness would be a much harder rule to follow or measure. Throughout time, religious adherents have had customs that they have followed in order to establish discipline. This is one of ours. In Jesus’ time, there were others. There is nothing inherently wrong with wine. WE don’t drink it, in the same way that Jews of the Bible didn’t eat pork. Yet Jesus drank wine and we eat pork.
So my understanding from what I have been taught is that wine and/or alcohol drives away the spirit, at least for the time being, and therefore everything that goes with it including humility, personal revelation, interpretation and understanding and other things. Just my understanding.
Kipper wrote:On Own Now wrote:The WoW is a teaching of our time, not Jesus’ or Joseph Smith’s even. It was largely instituted as a way to be more civilized in our mannerisms. I think of the prohibition of alcohol as a subtle way to preach against drunkenness. We’ve codified it into ‘no alcohol’ which is simpler to monitor, because it is black & white. No drunkenness would be a much harder rule to follow or measure. Throughout time, religious adherents have had customs that they have followed in order to establish discipline. This is one of ours. In Jesus’ time, there were others. There is nothing inherently wrong with wine. WE don’t drink it, in the same way that Jews of the Bible didn’t eat pork. Yet Jesus drank wine and we eat pork.
So my understanding from what I have been taught is that wine and/or alcohol drives away the spirit, at least for the time being, and therefore everything that goes with it including humility, personal revelation, interpretation and understanding and other things. Just my understanding.
I don’t think that’s born out in church history. I read once that T Edgar Lyon commented on the use of beer and wine after fasting at meetings in the Kirtland temple where participants reported spiritual manifestations.
Kipper wrote:So my understanding from what I have been taught is that wine and/or alcohol drives away the spirit, at least for the time being, and therefore everything that goes with it including humility, personal revelation, interpretation and understanding and other things. Just my understanding.
Sure, but are you talking about wine itself or the act of drinking wine when that is against a spiritual commitment that you have with God? Kissing my wife doesn’t drive away the spirit at all, in fact, it invites the spirit much of the time. Yet kissing my neighbor when my wife isn’t looking would most certainly drive away the spirit. So, it’s not a kiss, but being unfaithful that is the issue. Similarly, there is nothing wrong with wine itself, but as Paul said on the topic of mosaic dietary laws:Quote:I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. –Romans 14:14 (NRSV)
Well I wouldn’t get too wound up about it. The WOW admonishes us that mild barley drinks are good for us. The same WOW promises us hidden treasures of knowledge and health. The Church on the other hand forbids that which God has declared good, such as Wine for Sacraments and Beer for our bellies. So I suppose it depends on where your loyalties are. I think the scriptures tell an interesting story about booze. A lot of trouble comes from drunken people in the scripture stories, and on occasion the people of God use booze to accomplish some purpose by getting people drunk. So I think overdoing it is the problem, but the substance itself is not evil. An inanimate object is not capable of choosing or being evil, but we sure love to associate it with evil. The vanilla in your pantry is mostly booze, and no one in the church complains about that.
Section 89 focuses on addiction peddlers in the future. Given what I’ve seen in my life, I can accept that as the reason behind the restrictions. Everything else is secondary and cultural, imo.
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