struggling with decision to stay

[Anonymous]

Dear Falcosp,

With others, I wish you a warm welcome to the StayLDS community. First, I hope that you have internalized the other responses that have assured you that you do NOT need to feel like a hypocrite. One of my greatest desires for the Church is that priesthood leaders would be trained to tell us questioners two things:

1) It is ok to have questions. You can still have questions and be a good member.

2) There is more than one way to be a good Mormon!

I think that making your religion/world view your very own is thrilling and empowering and one of the more important steps you will take in life. Know that you have a caring, understanding community here to support you as you do so!

As far as being “in the closest” goes, I think it helps to own your decision. Are you sure that your family members can’t handle you talking about your doubts? If you are sure, then you are making a conscious choice to put your love and caring for them ahead of your need to share your every thought. This is not hypocrisy; it is prioritizing. We do this with loved ones all the time. And over time, I bet they will be ready to hear more. I have never felt so close to my wife as I have since we have been listening to the Mormon Stories podcasts together. She understands and is no longer afraid of my status as a hopeful agnostic theist Mormon.

Hmm, why do I stay? First, because God put me here. This is my community, my faith language. I want to serve and help here. I feel very fulfilled having worked out a way to feel at peace with religious issues and being able to give each individual what he or she needs from the treasury of my experience and insights. I sincerely value faith.

Philosophically, I see religion as a symbolic system that points to a reality that, though unknowable, really does WORK. I think that miracles do happen, religion really benefits people, etc. So I use the Mormon language, for example, to interact with and point toward metaphysical principles I do not understand. And for me, the Mormon language and framework works for me. This is how I can both be agnostic but also trust in the power of faith, prayer, ordinances, and religion in general, about as much as I did when I accepted things literally.

Probably a bit more information than you wanted. Glad you are here!

[Anonymous]

If you have read my post in “support” under “unofficially excommunicated” you will know where I am. I am questioning everything. I don’t even know if I believe in God. All I know is I hope and pray to a God I don’t even know exists anymore that he does and I will get my testimony back. I stay because I want my testimony back.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for all the replies. There are a few things that really resonate with me.

clahcrah wrote:

If you have read my post in “support” under “unofficially excommunicated” you will know where I am. I am questioning everything. I don’t even know if I believe in God. All I know is I hope and pray to a God I don’t even know exists anymore that he does and I will get my testimony back. I stay because I want my testimony back.

I too, feel this–the desire to gain my testimony back, but in my heart I believe it is a vain hope. I just long for the peace that came with “knowing.” But in reality, I would rather know it was all a sham after all. Right now I consider myself an agnostic with atheist leanings!

cwald wrote:

I’m not real sure why I stay to be honest. Sometimes it really sucks. I guess right now I stay because the “spirits” tell me to remain until further notice.

I love the honesty here. I think right now staying does suck for me and it is nauseating to go to church. While I have a ward family and I know I could call on them for help at any time, the help would come because I am LDS, not because any of them are my friends. I have never really enjoyed attending my ward, but did so since it was the righteous thing to do. Now I am struggling to find a reason to go. I go for my DH, but I get mad sitting and listening to what I now consider to be hot air at best and crap at worst!

Brian Johnston wrote:

Hi Falcosp,

falcosp wrote:

but I no longer agree with almost every point of doctrine and teaching of which I used to have such a strong testimony.

This statement jumped out at me.

Did you have a testimony of faith, repentance (making your life better, not some horrible doomsday guilt thing), baptism and following the Spirit (your conscience, free-agency, personal revelation)? What about the teachings of “families are forever” and positive community environment? How about serving those who are in need and are downtrodden, and showing compassion like the Savior? Teachings of universal salvation for all humankind, and universal relation and connection with all humans regardless of nation (we are all brothers and sisters)? How about the freedom from creeds, and the spirit of exploring God through study and personal revelation?

So what teachings do you disagree so strongly with?

You make a good point. Thank you! BUT, I want to run out of the chapel when we get talks on how important family history work is, how every member sb a missionary to bring others to the “true” gospel, how important it is to pay tithing AND a generous fast offering, how the temple is being so underutilized and we need to ramp up our attendance and make sacrifices to go, how important it is to read the BoM every day!

If we could teach the general points of service, kindness, and love for mankind, if we truly accepted all worshipers as they come, it would be easier. But, a sister who comes dressed in a pant-suit was told it was not Sunday appropriate, an investigator who smelled like cigarette smoke was shunned, and I take constant flak for my own son’s long hair since it is not to church standards–and he is only 4yo! The pressure to conform is huge, and I don’t want my children to suffer because of it! Or me either!

I have been in many ward councils where I felt all that was accomplished was gossip and slander with a scripture and a prayer thrown in for good measure. The well being of investigators and members is supposed to be important, but it always felt like it was an assignment no one wanted to bother with unless specifically asked to help. It is so much easier to speculate on what sin caused Brother So-and-So to stop coming than to find a way to let him know that we loved him regardless of his attendance. All we wanted was to have him back, and if that wasn’t going to happen, why waste time on him when we could get our numbers up by focusing on someone else?

While I don’t believe that Christ as preached in Christianity is our Savior, I do think we attribute to him many qualities worthy of emulation. If we focused more on those and less on living the “standards,” if we focused more on loving and less on “saving ordinances” I would feel more comfortable. But right now there is a torrent of anger, confusion, sadness, and loss in my heart that is making staying LDS a very hard thing. I hope it gets easier.

Thanks for letting me get some things off my chest!

[Anonymous]

One pattern I’ve noticed that has helped some people, including myself, is to NOT pray about whether the “Church is true”. Many of us assume it might not be, and stay active anyway by praying for the following:

Try praying about whether you you should stay with it and commit to it. Almost like you would about a job, although Church membership is different. The company doesn’t have to be “true” or even living up to its ideals for your involvement/commitment to a position within it “to be good”. That way, when this existence is over and you find out it’s not true, for example, you won’t care. You followed your inner compass and got the most out of the experience.

With the proliferation of anti-Mormon ideas on the Internet, and the accessibilty of all kinds of conflicting evidence about its history, I find the approach above provides more personal guidance and motivation than even tireless analysis and study.

[Anonymous]

Good point on what to pray for SilentDawning.

With the talk about agnosticism and atheism, I wanted to link to another post I wrote that puts a positive spin on such world views. There really can be peace in an active Mormon agnosticism. And frustration with Mormon culture is valid because well, it many ways it is WRONG.

http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=2161

[Anonymous]

falcosp wrote:

and I take constant flak for my own son’s long hair since it is not to church standards–and he is only 4yo! The pressure to conform is huge, and I don’t want my children to suffer because of it! Or me either!

If you are like me, the hair thing is nothing to you and everything to other members, but everything that eliminates stress received from other members helps. The bottom line is, there is not a church standard against long hair. I carried copies of an ensign article I started handing to everyone that gave me crap about my hair. I tried to attach it here but it wasn’t allowed. I don’t know if we are allowed to put our email addresses up here so I sill send you a private message with my email address and if you want it send me yours and I will send a word copy of it. Anyone else wanting it is welcome to send me their address and I will send it, or it can be looked up on lds.org. From the Ensign, Feb 1993, 29.30 under “I have a question” , the question being “Is there a dress and grooming standard for temple attendance. I will quote here a few lines from it.

“Church leaders, recognizing that fashions go in cycles, are sensitive to the rich cultural diversity within the Church. For example, they have recently held that clean, neatly trimmed and managed beards and long hair for men—as well as certain other fashions that to some might seem “trendy”—are acceptable for the temple, provided they are not inherently offensive or vulgar.”

and

“. Our sincere desire to respect the sanctity of the temple will lead us to appear acceptable before the Lord—both in our grooming and in our attitudes toward others whose tastes may differ from ours.”

I love that last line. The problem with anyone complaining about anothers long hair is clearly with them, not the person with long hair.

Hope this helps

[Anonymous]

falcosp wrote:

If we could teach the general points of service, kindness, and love for mankind, if we truly accepted all worshipers as they come, it would be easier.

I have been in many ward councils where I felt all that was accomplished was gossip and slander with a scripture and a prayer thrown in for good measure.

While I don’t believe that Christ as preached in Christianity is our Savior, I do think we attribute to him many qualities worthy of emulation. If we focused more on those and less on living the “standards,” if we focused more on loving and less on “saving ordinances” I would feel more comfortable. But right now there is a torrent of anger, confusion, sadness, and loss in my heart that is making staying LDS a very hard thing. I hope it gets easier.

These are some great insights, and I feel the same way! Sometimes our community can be so caught up in the liturgy, the “works” that it seems we forget about the attributes of Christ. We constantly hear that we should be like the Savior, but the only teaching they use is “BE YE PERFECT” and we forget the rest of the sermon on the mount. And the irony is, the Greek word for “perfect” doesn’t mean exacting or precise, rather it means complete or whole (and you can find that right in the footnotes of our own KJV).

Let me ask you a question. How is your Bishop? Is he Christ-centered, or Church-centered? Is he a shepherd or an administrator? Is he a minister or a Pharisee?

The reason I ask is because I’ve been to some wards where the Spirit of compassion, love, and tolerance were present. And I’ve been to wards where legalism, judgmentalism, and ridged orthodoxy replaced the Spirit. And in both cases, I could see the attitudes reflected in the Bishop of the Ward. Not saying that all of the blame should be cast upon him, but the tone is certainly set by him.

There is some truth to the statement that it’s better to go to church not expecting to feel the Spirit, but to BRING the Spirit.

What I have learned is that Christianity is an internal, not external process. We can be Christians in any circumstance. Just look at Paul and the letters he wrote from the most vile circumstances imaginable, where sewage and human waste drained directly into his prison cell – yet, the letters he wrote to the Ephesians were some of the most spiritually profound and uplifting epistles that we have by him. God can use you in any circumstance you are in, including the Mormon church. :angel:

And, btw, some of the most Christ-like people I know can no longer say with certainty that they even believe in Christ as taught in the Bible. There is sacred humility in questioning. I myself struggle with the origins of Christianity and whether or not the historical Jesus is really what his followers taught about him. Sometimes, I look at the Gospel’s more as a proclamation of faith than history. But, I have hope. And I find peace in the message of Christ.

So, here’s my assignment to you – use every opportunity you can in church, whether it be a teaching or speaking assignment, an opening prayer, or in discussions, to promote the attributes of Christ which are missing in your Ward. You can’t get in trouble for preaching the message of Christ. His name is still in the title of our Church, even if we tend to forget that sometimes.

[Anonymous]

epiginosko wrote:

There is sacred humility in questioning.

Love that. Because of our unfamiliarity with Judaism, we miss one of Jesus’ MAIN points… which is “Do not let the details of your religion get in the way of the POINT of your religion, which is to love God and each other.”

The Parable of the Good Samaritan is a brilliant illustration of this… I think most readers assume “oh, the priest and levites are the jerks and the Samaritan is nice” and don’t take it further.

They miss the point that the Priest and Levite were the holiest members of Judaism, the religious elites, the “General Authorities” if you will. They neglected the dying man because religiously, they could not touch the dead outside their own families. Jesus is saying that the outcast Samaritan despised by the Chosen People is closer to God than the most elite members of the “One True Church” if Church status and culture gets in the way of love.

Now, I want to emphasize that I believe there are so, so many good people in the Church, and the Church does a lot of good to help people become more loving, caring, service oriented etc. But that doesn’t diminish the hurt that still happens, and the fact that many people just don’t get it.

Nice handle by the way, Epiginosko. Perhaps ironic given our agnosticism.

[Anonymous]

I guess when I think of Fowler’s Stages of faith, I realize that people of any religion will go through these kinds of feelings…

It is not a uniquely Mormon thing. I think it is a human experience thing.

For me, there are many things I love about the church and the teachings and the people and how I feel at times. I don’t want to throw all those out. I want to find a way to make them work, and what I’m finding that is helpful is allowing me to be myself, with all my thoughts/doubts/hopes/desires … and stop trying to think I have to be some certain way to be a good mormon, and I also think I need to let others be the way they are and not expect them to be what I think they should be (including church leaders).

At first, I didn’t think I could be honest and be myself and still have a place in the church. I have since learned, there is plenty of room in the church for us all, and there have been many people I have helped because of my views, and I have been helped by staying associated with many great people at church (and this forum has helped me open up also).

When I realized a lot of this, then my question becomes…”Why should I leave?” I have not yet found any good reason to. 🙂

[Anonymous]

Cadence wrote:

I am on a mission of sorts I think. At least that is what I tell myself. I am not out to convert others to my way of thinking but I do want to have the opportunity to help open their minds to so much more than Mormonism allows. Have to be rather careful though or I will not have to leave because I will be kicked out.

This is very similar to my mission statement Cadence.

f4h1

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

When I realized a lot of this, then my question becomes…”Why should I leave?” I have not yet found any good reason to. 🙂

This is the optimal “glass half full” response. Good for you —- but I can tell you I am not there, not even close. I’m still seriously searching and praying for reasons to STAY, not looking for reasons to leave. Unfortunately those are all too familiar with me at this time.

[Anonymous]

cwald wrote:

This is the optimal “glass half full” response. Good for you —- but I can tell you I am not there, not even close. I’m still seriously searching and praying for reasons to STAY, not looking for reasons to leave. Unfortunately those are all too familiar with me at this time.

Ya, I get that too.

I guess that highlights Brian’s first post on this thread…that there are different experiences and a range of responses, including not staying if a person doesn’t feel that is right. I guess, I just shared how I feel about it, which is also good to have your views on it…and others reading these posts have different experiences to drawn on as they figure it out for themselves, right?

Bottom line, there is more than one way to skin a cat (how did that phrase ever get started??? sorry…mind is wandering again).

[Anonymous]

falcosp wrote:

…I am trying to stay in the church for family unity since my husband, children and extended family are all TBMs, but I no longer agree with almost every point of doctrine and teaching of which I used to have such a strong testimony. Everything rubs me the wrong way and I feel like a hypocrite since I am sill very much in the closet (my DH does know and is as accepting as he can be as a TBM in grief). So here is my question. Outside of the obvious reason of staying for the sake of family unity, why do you stay?

I must confess that I have lapsed on my church attendance the last few months but I blame my wife for not going either even though she still believes in all this. When I do go to church and inevitably hear many things I don’t agree with I just shrug it off as something I have no control over whether I stay or go so I figure there’s no point in being a martyr trying to fight it. The way I see it, it’s only a few hours of church per week at worst so I just don’t see why it needs to be the end of the world if it claims to be more than it really is in my opinion especially when I don’t have a TR or calling. They can say whatever they want to and it doesn’t mean I need to believe it or let it bother me too much anymore.

[Author]

Posts