Struggling with Joseph Smith

[Anonymous]

Mockingjay wrote

Quote:

I cherish the free and open exchange of ideas here about JS (and many other topics), but at least in my neck of the woods, there is a huge divide between this and what happens at church on Sunday. I don’t see that divide narrowing anytime soon.

I agree. I also believe in a few short years that will change.

We all may be in our twilight years when that happens, but the breadth of people who are shifting paradigms isn’t shrinking it’s growing. We are anomaly’s in our present ward and time, but as I watch Millenials I think the church is going to be forced to open it’s view point, otherwise they are going to be so small as an institution they will be forced to fix the damage.

For me as I listen to those discussions, I have decided to quit fighting, I was TBM once, too. It wasn’t that long ago and I remember the feelings and convictions. My best solution is to bring reading material or Angry birds to church.

When I do discuss Joseph I highlight the teachings of his that get less attention, but to me are more gospel centered. I do that for two reasons to build bridges and protect others. I hated my religious transition. It wasn’t a faith transition. The faith transition began when I started to build. I really have no desire to drag anyone down that road. If someone has concerns, worries, questions I will be there. I watch and listen for it. But I don’t want to impose a crisis on some one. Likewise, rebuilding is tough, it’s a human tsunami and hurts like the dickens. If I can plant seeds of gentle hope in people with less intense quotes, I think they can weather the storm better, have oil in their lamp, maybe even skip out on the bottomless pit pain that seems to accompany the change.

The divide is huge. We alone can’t bridge it, but we can help, we can support others, judge less, reach out more. And we can wait. Waiting is helping in it’s own way.

[Anonymous]

SunbeltRed wrote:

Ann wrote:

Joseph is that crumbly old rock dug out of the ground which, if we are observant and careful, will reveal the life of an ancient sea bed a million years old or give us clues about the age of the earth. He is a stone like many others, but he’s one that I believe God has touched and caused to provide light for our dark journey to the Promised Land. We would do well to remember that while this stone is a revelatory tool, it’s also still a rock and if we set it on the tablecloth it will leave a smudge. If we throw it away because of it behaving like a rock, well, if only the gift of prophecy guaranteed a well-behaved prophet. Prophets are people. That is all they ever have been and all they ever will be. In fact, it seems sometimes the gift of prophecy comes despite behavior rather than because of it.

I appreciate the effort in this, but it gets back to my original point. To me it seems that only a Mormon would take this approach, one who is attempting to hang on to their faith in JS. I guess I’m not much interested in lugging around a rock that gets the tablecloth dirty. I think instead of being a foundation piece its dragging me down. I’m going to set it down for a while, and perhaps one day I will circle back and it will feel lighter in my backpack. But right now, I’m not much interested in carrying it around.

All I can say is, boy, do I know how you feel.

[Anonymous]

Sunbelt,

I’m right there with you. After years of studying JS, and trying to grab onto every excuse I could find that still supported him as a prophet, I finally grew tired of making excuses for JS and decided to take an honest look at him for what history shows him to be. Like others, I believe he really did believe that he was a prophet. But that doesn’t mean he WAS one. I believe he began with good intentions and had some real courage to take what churches were teaching at the time and to start asking honest questions about what he felt was truth. As he started to come up with answers, I believe he really did believe that he was being led by God, and wasn’t doing anything maliciously. However, as time went on, I believe he did become driven more by a desire for power and authority, and less by a drive to seek truth. I think he started to use ‘revelations’ as a way to rule with unquestioned authority. I’ve grown tired of hearing people say that we shouldn’t worry about what happened then, because the prophets of today take precedence. I think that’s a convenient way to overlook way too much that shouldn’t have happened. As a church that claims that the truth was taken from the earth after Christ’s death because of unrighteousness, then we’d better be prepared to hold our leaders to a higher standard than we would hold those early Christian leaders to. And I don’t see JS’s behavior as being much different from many of those early corrupt popes and bishops. To say that he was a prophet who made human mistakes is fine. It’s the magnitude of those human mistakes that bothers me. We are held to higher standards as members of the church than we hold the founder to. If I lived my life the way Joseph lived his, I’d be excommunicated in a heartbeat. I simply can’t believe that he was being commanded by God to marry other men’s wives, destroy a printing press, start a militia and name himself Lieutenant General, run for President, etc., etc…. There comes a point when I have to say, “Okay, that’s enough. This guy’s gone way overboard, and I can’t keep giving him a pass on things that I wouldn’t get a pass on just because I’m human and I make mistakes.

I don’t give JS any kind of prophet status or mantle, which also means I don’t accept his teachings as prophetic. That has required me to drop everything, as you’ve contemplated, and start picking up the pieces that I believe are beneficial even if I don’t believe they are necessary for salvation. For example, I believe that we can be reunited with our families again in the next life, but I don’t believe we have to go through the temple ceremonies to get there. So, for me personally, my search has become one of finding what I believe Jesus Christ wanted us to do, and not what Joseph Smith wanted us to do.

[Anonymous]

I apologize for not reading the other comments in this thread before posting. My response to your opening question is: after reading RSR I realized that JS, whatever inspiration he may have had, started a movement that was heavily influenced by the world around him and included Calvinism, restoration doctrines from campbellism, folk magic, masonry and others. The other prophets of the world did the same thing. Buddhism and Sikhism grew out of Hinduism. Christianity and Islam grew out of Judaism. All these prophets have blessed the earth and speak wisdom and truth through their own culture. I encourage you to read broadly and discover their truths. Someday, years from now, come back to the book of Abraham or Moses and read it without the lens of a historical, literal document, but as scripture written by a prophet, who like a man, had the hubris to believe his writing was a translation of historical fact. Then you will find new meaning in it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Anonymous]

Holy Cow wrote:

Sunbelt,

I’m right there with you.

Me too! I’m enjoying this thread because I’m thinking/struggling with a lot of the same issues. It’s so hard for me to avoid black/white thinking. If JS was really not inspired of God, then the Book of Mormon and the Church are not “true”, and everything I’ve based my faith on is a sham, etc. This is really the crux of my faith crisis.

But is it possible that JS could have been inspired of God (at least some of the time) in spite of all his faults? I suppose this is possible, but Holy Cow nailed my sentiments with this:

Holy Cow wrote:

To say that he was a prophet who made human mistakes is fine. It’s the magnitude of those human mistakes that bothers me. We are held to higher standards as members of the church than we hold the founder to. If I lived my life the way Joseph lived his, I’d be excommunicated in a heartbeat. I simply can’t believe that he was being commanded by God to marry other men’s wives, destroy a printing press, start a militia and name himself Lieutenant General, run for President, etc., etc…. There comes a point when I have to say, “Okay, that’s enough. This guy’s gone way overboard, and I can’t keep giving him a pass on things that I wouldn’t get a pass on just because I’m human and I make mistakes.

To me, it seems much more likely that JS was deluded (although I believe he was sincere). But there is no doubt there was something to him to be able to attract so many followers. Some remained loyal to him in spite of his faults, while others could not accept his faults and turned against him, or considered him a fallen prophet.

I’m not sure what I think or believe now. I’m not even sure I believe in God anymore. All of this makes it so hard for me to stay LDS. If it weren’t for my DW and kids, I don’t think I would. Somehow I have to figure out how to make this work for me.

[Anonymous]

I think JS was fallible, but he didn’t deserve to be murdered. He was an incredible man and I do think he was inspired.

Compared to Rev Moon, David Koresh or Jim Jones, he holds up well!

Familiarity breeds contempt and the LDS have made Smith blandd

[Anonymous]

FaithfulSkeptic wrote:

I’m not sure what I think or believe now. I’m not even sure I believe in God anymore. All of this makes it so hard for me to stay LDS. If it weren’t for my DW and kids, I don’t think I would. Somehow I have to figure out how to make this work for me.

Focus on what you do believe (or maybe only have a desire to believe) – even if what you believe or want to believe is generic.

[Anonymous]

What I really like about the JS story is that it shows that he had flashes of inspiration and many moments where he didn’t appear to be inspired at all. I think we’re all alike in that regard. JS is no longer on a pedestal, he’s at my level. I can have just as much confidence in myself with regards to mingling with gods as I had previously placed in JS mingling with gods. I’ll leave the planning for the brethren to someone else though.

Holy Cow wrote:

We are held to higher standards as members of the church than we hold the founder to.

Thank goodness.

In some ways I view that as progress. 200 years from now I’d love for my descendants to look back on my experiences and say that they are held to a higher standard. That might imply that they’ve found a better way to live than I’ve been able to find… provided that better way doesn’t translate into some warped hedging of the law.

Holy Cow wrote:

There comes a point when I have to say, “Okay, that’s enough. This guy’s gone way overboard, and I can’t keep giving him a pass on things that I wouldn’t get a pass on just because I’m human and I make mistakes.

Well said. I think rounding that corner is the moment the shelf breaks for a lot of LDS people that experience a faith crisis. I might make one slight adjustment, I can’t keep giving him a pass on things that I wouldn’t give myself a pass on.

I don’t mean to churn the waters but I did want to explain how I struggled. I viewed JS as a Christian heavy metal band. Yeah, I’m weird.

Let’s say there’s a metal band that’s really struggling to find success commercially. Some bands don’t make it because they never had an opportunity, their big break never came. The band in question however never made it because they didn’t play their instruments particularly well. They weren’t a good metal band. One day one of the band members has an epiphany. “Let’s become a Christian metal band. We’ll have a built in audience and no one will be critical of our band because criticizing the band would be like criticizing our message.” That band would go on to become Creed and their names would be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues.

Enter our treasure digger. Little success, criticisms abound, losing his audience, has an epiphany, etc., etc. JS is a Christian treasure digger using religion to extend a failed career. Now he’s hard to pin down because criticizing him would be criticizing the message.

I don’t know why I shared that. I don’t like sowing seeds of doubt, that outlook isn’t charitable at all, but it’s something I felt for a long time. That said, the message lives independent of the catalyst. Maybe god worked through the metal guys by inspiring them to write some lyrics that reached some people that were really hard to reach. Maybe god worked through the treasure digger to unearth something special.

The metal guys also had some really crummy songs but I can make my own mix tape.

Holy Cow wrote:

So, for me personally, my search has become one of finding what I believe Jesus Christ wanted us to do, and not what Joseph Smith wanted us to do.

I may have screwed up and took things one step too far, some days I touch the void. What do I want to do? Good thing I took the name of Jesus Christ upon myself, it helped me decide that I want to do what Jesus did.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

I don’t mean to churn the waters but I did want to explain how I struggled. I viewed JS as a Christian heavy metal band. Yeah, I’m weird.

Let’s say there’s a metal band that’s really struggling to find success commercially. Some bands don’t make it because they never had an opportunity, their big break never came. The band in question however never made it because they didn’t play their instruments particularly well. They weren’t a good metal band. One day one of the band members has an epiphany. “Let’s become a Christian metal band. We’ll have a built in audience and no one will be critical of our band because criticizing the band would be like criticizing our message.” That band would go on to become Creed and their names would be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues.

Enter our treasure digger. Little success, criticisms abound, losing his audience, has an epiphany, etc., etc. JS is a Christian treasure digger using religion to extend a failed career. Now he’s hard to pin down because criticizing him would be criticizing the message.

I don’t know why I shared that. I don’t like sowing seeds of doubt, that outlook isn’t charitable at all, but it’s something I felt for a long time. That said, the message lives independent of the catalyst. Maybe god worked through the metal guys by inspiring them to write some lyrics that reached some people that were really hard to reach. Maybe god worked through the treasure digger to unearth something special.

The metal guys also had some really crummy songs but I can make my own mix tape.

Holy Cow wrote:

So, for me personally, my search has become one of finding what I believe Jesus Christ wanted us to do, and not what Joseph Smith wanted us to do.

I may have screwed up and took things one step too far, some days I touch the void. What do I want to do? Good thing I took the name of Jesus Christ upon myself, it helped me decide that I want to do what Jesus did.

😆 :clap: Good one Nibbler. This is exactly what I love about our free exchange of ideas here.

[Anonymous]

I am going to say this carefully, since I do NOT mean at all to elevate Joseph to more than a normal, fallen, fallible prophet – the same kind that is in all our scriptures and less than the caricatured portrayals we have of some:

All we have of the life of Jesus, of Nazareth, are mythologized stories of his birth (imo), one story of when he was 12, and then three years of spotty coverage of his ministry. We have NOTHING of his own, personal, adult life prior to his ministry – which means we have next to nothing for the first 30 years of his life. What we do know, if the record is accurate at all, is that he was NOT accepted in “his own country” (which is instructive, I believe) and that, by every objective, non-religiously-biased measure, his ministry while alive was a complete and utter failure. It lasted and has a legacy for two main reasons: 1) An influential Jewish leader named Saul was converted and became Paul, the Apostle; 2) the Roman Empire adopted the name of Christianity as its state religion, while absolutely bastardizing much of the heart and soul of Jesus’ own ministry.

In my opinion, accepting Joseph Smith for what he actually said he was (a weak, rough vessel of revelation and restoration) is MUCH less difficult than accepting Jesus, of Nazareth, for what is said he was (a perfect, sinless man who was God born as human) – especially for those who know the origins of much of our mythology regarding him. Viewing Jesus as literally what he is said to have been in the Bible is the HUGE stretch of faith; Joseph fits quite well the model of prophetic messiness that characterizes many of our scriptural prophets.

When you add the Mormon definition of prophecy being applicable to all who speak the word of God through inspiration (meaning all of us can be and are meant to be prophets, no matter our mortal shortcomings, weaknesses and sins), Joseph becomes just such a person. The only difference between him and me and every person here is the magnitude of his accomplishments – both good and bad.

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

In my opinion, accepting Joseph Smith for what he actually said he was (a weak, rough vessel of revelation and restoration) is MUCH less difficult than accepting Jesus, of Nazareth, for what is said he was (a perfect, sinless man who was God born as human) – especially for those who know the origins of much of our mythology regarding him. Viewing Jesus as literally what he is said to have been in the Bible is the HUGE stretch of faith; Joseph fits quite well the model of prophetic messiness that characterizes many of our scriptural prophets.

I don’t know, Ray. I completely see what you’re saying, but I’m having a hard time with it. My personal feelings about Joseph are probably keeping me pretty biased here, but I have a hard time putting much faith in him. I agree that the things written about Christ are much more of a stretch, and I don’t necessarily agree with every word in the NT either. Walking on water, fasting for 40 days, bringing people back from death… it’s all a huge leap. But the ancient literature, both supporting and opposing Christ, can be questionable. There are a lot of questionable sources on both sides. However, when we look at the source-material regarding Joseph Smith, the stuff I consider to be of most value is the stuff that came from people who worked side-by-side with him, and some of it from Joseph himself. I’m willing to take a giant leap of faith for Christ, even though there are sources who contradict his very existence. But, with the mountain of evidence against JS, I have a hard time even taking a baby-step of faith for him. Years ago, I was a Joseph-enthusiast. But, anymore, I can’t put that title of ‘prophet’ on him… even fallen prophet. I think it’s just too much of a stretch, and I can’t get myself to stretch that far.

And, he did refer to himself as a rough and weak vessel, but I have a hard time buying into his ‘humble’ act. I just didn’t see a lot of humility in the way that Presidential-hopeful, Anointed King over the Earth, Lieutenant-General Smith actually viewed himself as a poor, humble chap. He claimed he did more for this Earth than anybody other than Christ. I just don’t buy it. He certainly knew how to get people to follow him, and he must have had an extremely influential and magnetic personality, but I can’t support him as more than the founder of the church. Again, I’m sure my own personal demons give me a skewed picture of him. I’ve just tried so many times, and for so long, to be a strong supporter of JS, just to find one thing after another that chipped away at that support. I’m going to have to find something that really influences me in the other direction to start seeing him in a positive light again.

[Anonymous]

When it comes to Jesus vs. Joseph, fact or fiction, Jesus represents a higher ideal. That’s why I feel myths have a lot of power. If I set my sights on something that is completely out of human reach I might spend a lifetime striving to better myself. If I set the bar on something more worldly I might be setting the bar to low, I might not rise to my potential simply because I was unable to imagine the better alternative.

The veneer has peeled back on Joseph, the veneer could just as easily be pulled back on Jesus. The NT can still represent a compendium of human wisdom and inspiration, the absolute best of the best moral teachings of the time. That wouldn’t change based on whether Jesus truly existed and whether he truly was what people said he was, the teachings can still inspire us to live better lives. In that light Jesus exists in the narrative to serve as someone into whom we try to project ourselves, he’s someone we want to be like. At that point I question whether it matters if he existed, either way I’d be striving toward the ideal. (Resurrection is a whole other beast.)

Humans are still coming up with wisdom, inspiration and the absolute best of the best. The restoration is ongoing. There’s no reason why we should cut the process of perfecting what we consider to be an ideal off at 2000 years ago. It’s really hard to sneak in continued revelation because people are very reluctant to add anything to the Jesus myth. It’s also hard to get traction on giving birth to new myths.

I believe the myth of JS both successfully weaved new human ideals into the larger narrative and provided a path for future ideals to be added to the narrative.

Holy Cow wrote:

He claimed he did more for this Earth than anybody other than Christ.

Help me out here. Did JS ever say this of himself or was that someone else getting a bit carried away when delivering JS’s eulogy?

[Anonymous]

nibbler wrote:

Holy Cow wrote:

He claimed he did more for this Earth than anybody other than Christ.

Help me out here. Did JS ever say this of himself or was that someone else getting a bit carried away when delivering JS’s eulogy?

You’re right. I was thinking of D&C 135:3 : Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it.

What JS actually said was:

“God made Aaron to be the mouth piece for the children of Israel, and He will make me be god to you in His stead, and the Elders to be mouth for me; and if you don’t like it, you must lump it.” (History of the Church, vol. 6, pp.319-320)

and

“I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him, but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.” (History of the Church, vol. 6, pp. 408-9)

[Anonymous]

Holy Cow wrote:

What JS actually said was:

“God made Aaron to be the mouth piece for the children of Israel, and He will make me be god to you in His stead, and the Elders to be mouth for me; and if you don’t like it, you must lump it.” (History of the Church, vol. 6, pp.319-320)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKyhTX9LQEA&t=0m16s” class=”bbcode_url”>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKyhTX9LQEA&t=0m16s :angel:

[Anonymous]

😆 That’s awesome!

[Author]

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