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This has been bothering me lately…. I don’t deny spiritual experiences I’ve had. Coming home from teaching appointments as a missionary with my mind full of light and full of peace and spirituality in my body. Praying at the side of my bed getting the answer the Church is true. Feeling that burning in the breast during different meetings over time. All those things seem to suggest I should just ignore all the negativity stuff in the church, ignore my natural conclusions and white-knuckle my way to the next life in full-on service and TR-holding in the church.
But then, enter these experiences — feeling powerful spiritual feelings while watching pure fiction on television. Those movies or shows where someone expresses love to someone else, and you feel the spirit. Someone commits an act of selfless service or even sacrifice their life for someone else, and you feel the spirit. A selfless person dies. When I was at St. Ann de Beaupres in Quebec — this old Catholic cathedral — and I took a moment to pray in a pew and felt the overwhelming spirit in my chest. Feeling powerful spiritual feelings as I sat at the feet of my minister in a different church when I was a teenager.
Fiction can instill the spirit, other churches can instill the spirit, and simple expressions of love and kindness from other people can do the same thing. It seems the spirit is present wherever GOODNESS is present. And the Holy Ghost doesn’t seem to be picky if there are surrounding untruths or problems with the religion as a whole. To me, it’s almost as if the Spirit ignores all the man-made problems and reinforces participation in wholesome activities. If it’s good for the person to be involved in it, and they want to, then He will “testify”.
Do, does the Spirit really testify the church is true, or simply that the church is good? Can you have a witness the church is “true” yet be on a good path by lessening your involvement in the pursuit of greater happiness through non-church activities and pursuits? Just how much can you trust the Spirit to show you the absolute truth or a religion when He seems not very picky about where He shows up?If “the Spirit” is “real” in some way, I like the Mormon explanation that it “testifies” of all truth, that all good is of God, and that it will testify to anyone who is open to it – whatever way each person will recognize it. That is one of the universalist elements I appreciate in Mormon theology – and it isn’t present in much of Protestant theology, particularly.
SilentDawning wrote:
Fiction can instill the spirit, other churches can instill the spirit, and simple expressions of love and kindness from other people can do the same thing. It seems the spirit is present wherever GOODNESS is present. And the Holy Ghost doesn’t seem to be picky if there are surrounding untruths or problems with the religion as a whole. To me, it’s almost as if the Spirit ignores all the man-made problems and reinforces participation in wholesome activities. If it’s good for the person to be involved in it, and they want to, then He will “testify”.I think that is good insight and it matches pretty much what I think. I think many in the church think we are the only ones who are influenced by the Spirit – and they’re absolutely wrong. Likewise, I think we have tied our ideas of how the Spirit works so closely with emotion that most members do no know the difference. I won’t profess I do either, except to say I now know what it isn’t – and isn’t emotion. It’s much more about peace – but I think you also know that.
Quote:Do, does the Spirit really testify the church is true, or simply that the church is good?Most likely B in my opinion. I have said this many times here – I don’t even know what that means (“I know the church is true”). However, for most to admit other than A would be admitting that they could be wrong about lots of other stuff influenced by their own biases and emotions.
Quote:Can you have a witness the church is “true” yet be on a good path by lessening your involvement in the pursuit of greater happiness through non-church activities and pursuits?
Sure, older people do it all the time. The church is not the gospel and it is not “the plan of happiness.” It can be a vehicle or guide on the path, but it is not the path.
Quote:Just how much can you trust the Spirit to show you the absolute truth or a religion when He seems not very picky about where He shows up?
That’s my struggle. Were I Obi Wan speaking to Luke I would have been saying “Don’t trust your feelings, Luke.” I think we can trust the Spirit, but only if we’re absolutely sure that’s what it is – and I don’t know how that’s accomplished. I do believe I’m doing my best under the circumstances and I do believe God loves me. If I end up in hell (which I don’t actually believe exists) I know lots of other good people who will be there to keep me company.I spent Christmas this year with some family members who are not LDS. They invited me to attend their Presbyterian service and, for the first time in my life, I attended another church. I felt the Spirit. The surroundings were different. Rock band, Crosses, “Hip” Pastor, etc. But the one thing that was familiar was the people. As I looked around the congregation I saw the same countenances I have seen my whole life in LDS Sacrament meetings. I saw people who believed they were in the right place at the right time, doing what they needed to be doing to be saved. They too were feeling the Spirit at their church. No doubt about it. Interestingly, I’ve had moments the past couple years where I have seriously considered leaving the LDS church. As I considered the logistics of doing that, I wondered things like: what will I replace it with? How will I find fulfillment? How will I manage the inevitable disappointment from family members? etc. I have, without question, felt the Spirit during that process as well…
Old Timer wrote:
If “the Spirit” is “real” in some way, I like the Mormon explanation that it “testifies” of all truth, that all good is of God, and that it will testify to anyone who is open to it – whatever way each person will recognize it.That is one of the universalist elements I appreciate in Mormon theology – and it isn’t present in much of Protestant theology, particularly.
I agree that is the way it is presented in Mormonism. But is it feasible to say that the Spirit will tell someone the Church is true when it isn’t because in telling the person it’s true, that person will more likely to live a good life? As I said, the Spirit doesn’t seem too picky about the religions within which it testifies. And often, it will instill itself in people in response to false stories on television — but which are wholesome. That is the crux of what I’m asking, and I’m not sure if you addressed that in your statement above. It doesn’t sound like it to me so I wonder what you think.
SilentDawning wrote:
Old Timer wrote:
If “the Spirit” is “real” in some way, I like the Mormon explanation that it “testifies” of all truth, that all good is of God, and that it will testify to anyone who is open to it – whatever way each person will recognize it.That is one of the universalist elements I appreciate in Mormon theology – and it isn’t present in much of Protestant theology, particularly.
I agree that is the way it is presented in Mormonism.
But is it feasible to say that the Spirit will tell someone the Church is true when it isn’t because in telling the person it’s true, that person will more likely to live a good life?As I said, the Spirit doesn’t seem too picky about the religions within which it testifies. And often, it will instill itself in people in response to false stories on television — but which are wholesome. That is the crux of what I’m asking, and I’m not sure if you addressed that in your statement above. It doesn’t sound like it to me so I wonder what you think.
I don’t know, I guess we’d have to believe that God lies if that’s the case (referring to the bolded line). I think more likely it’s not what God is saying, but what we think God said. It’s the old glass/mirror darkly/dimly thing – we’re not (usually) literally “hearing” God say anything but interpret what we think God is trying to say through our own foggy understanding and our own filters. I think almost all of scripture is like that – the writers who only have a dim/foggy/unclear understanding of what’s happening try to put that into words when there aren’t really words because it doesn’t come as words. It’s their own filtered (probably biased) understanding. We’re all guilty of it because we don’t have a better or clearer option.
SilentDawning wrote:Do, does the Spirit really testify the church is true, or simply that the church is good?
The standard teaching is that the spirit can be felt anywhere there is something good, when injecting that back in the context of movies you end up with the spirit witnessing when good principles are presented in movies but… sticking with the context of movies, would you ever feel inclined to ask god whether a specific movie you watched was the One True movie at the exclusion of all other movies? It seems silly in that context, but that’s what we ask people to do with the church.
The argument then shifts towards ordinances and authority. Those can be nice if you need them.
I’m with DJ. Whether the church is true doesn’t really register with me. For the sake of argument, say the church is 100% the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth with which Jesus is pleased. Maybe that earns a church a gold star in heaven or something but from a practical standpoint the question becomes, “Great, now what?” and all to often the answer to that question is to obligate people to participate in church programs and to hold specific beliefs on social issues.
In practice, the concept of a true church can result in setting the church itself up as an idol for worship. What is my true goal in life, belonging to an authoritative organization or living a principled life? A true church is only required for one of those goals.
SilentDawning wrote:Can you have a witness the church is “true” yet be on a good path by lessening your involvement in the pursuit of greater happiness through non-church activities and pursuits?
Sure. Again, for the sake of argument we’ll say that the church is true in the way the church teaches it is true. Even with a true church I think Jesus would say that the church was created for man, not man for the church. The church is a vehicle, not the destination. People are different and arrive at their destination differently. If the church isn’t working for someone I can’t imagine Jesus forcing someone to make it work.
SilentDawning wrote:Just how much can you trust the Spirit to show you the absolute truth or a religion when He seems not very picky about where He shows up?
Over the course of my life I’ve witnessed what I believed to be absolute truths come and go. Extrapolating from those experiences, whatever I currently hold to be an absolute truth will be tomorrows untruth. That’s okay, maybe it means I can spend less energy trying to chase absolute truths. Let them come. Let them go. And that’s why proving the church true (or false for that matter) doesn’t resonate much with me.
I also believe the spirit can guide people towards something they need in the moment they need it. People may need a true church at one stage in their lives, not need one for another stage, and then need it again some time in the future.
Thanks everyone — the majority of you seem to think the Spirit is much less of an absolute truth-giver, and more of a guide toward goodness. And he can guide you toward good experiences even if those experiences have untruths, partial truths or other less-than-true features. This to me, explains how people can believe the Spirit has guided them to a one-true-religion even though there are other people, equally as sure, who belong to other “one-true religions” that can’t all possibly be true at the same time.
Boy, are we ever dumb as human beings, to the point that God has to be pretty flexible with the “truth” to get us to live a good life.
It also gives us wiggle room at judgment day. If the Spirit is only generally reliable (pointing you in the direction of goodness rather than truth), it gives us a lot to say if we are criticized for not being temple-recommend holding, full-on believers in the LDS church.
This is a case for mercy, in my view, when that day comes that we pass on from this life.
So my wife and I were discussing this over the weekend. She has fully left the Church and thinks the “Spirit” is just our conscious. I believe it can be both the Spirit and our conscious. I have also felt the Spirit very strong and most instances it was outside of a Church setting when I felt it. I like the idea that the Spirit isn’t telling you the Church is the only true one but that it is a “good” one. When I prayed about the Church being true before my mission, or if the BoM was true or if I should marry my wife, I never received a “yes”, I just felt good.
This may require another thread but this brings up a question I have. Members receive the “Holy Ghost”. What makes that so much more special than just the “light of Christ” that we preach that everyone has? I know people that don’t have the “Holy Ghost” and feel the Spirit more than I do. They are of other religions or none at all and they are very in tune and seemed to be warned or guided what to do. Currently I’m not sure what I believe regard the receiving of the Holy Ghost.
dkd22 wrote:
Members receive the “Holy Ghost”. What makes that so much more special than just the “light of Christ” that we preach that everyone has? I know people that don’t have the “Holy Ghost” and feel the Spirit more than I do. They are of other religions or none at all and they are very in tune and seemed to be warned or guided what to do. Currently I’m not sure what I believe regard the receiving of the Holy Ghost.
The official answer is that the Gift of the Holy Ghost is an “additional endowment of the Spirit” we receive after baptism. In Gospel Principles at one time, they described a roman soldier or someone who felt the Spirit pre-baptism. The book went on to say that if the Roman hadn’t been baptized, that feeling of the Spirit would have left him. So, the light of Christ is supposed to be temporary too. Holy Ghost, if the person is worthy is supposed to be permanent. Whether I believe that is an open question. I felt the HG daily and powerfully for a while when I was meeting with a protestant minister pre-baptism. Then less powerfully and less regularly as a member. After I went to the temple for the first time I was on air for 3 solid days, with this powerful, eye-watering Spirit with me the whole time.
I felt going to the temple and getting washed and anointed was more powerful than the GHG after baptism for sure.
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