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Like many other areas, church has begun to open up in earnest here. Frankly all too soon for me. We’re back to full two hour church. Zoom is still available and sacrament still authorized at home but I fear that is ending soon. Masks are optional, although we’re not yet singing. The Memorial Day picnic allegedly had more people than in the past several years (and more than the previous day’s SM). There is a live stake priesthood meeting in a couple weeks. I am dragging my feet about returning to church. Masks are not optional for me at work, and I interact with far fewer people for way less time at work than I would at church (which is the excuse I use). I still have coworkers who test positive and/or have to quarantine. I am vaccinated and I’m really not worried about COVID. My state allows vaccinated people to enter businesses without masks and I do. So the real reason I’m not going to church isn’t fear of the disease or fear of infecting someone else, which is a lie I will eventually repent of.
The real reason is in the topic. Why? I have been regularly doing Zoom SM, but I have not been “uplifted” in any way in weeks. I can’t say this past Sunday hit an all time low, but it definitely tied (it might be hard to get worse, actually). I do find meaning in the Sacrament of the Lord’s Supper, but I’m doing that at home and truth is I find meaning in the rite at other churches as well (I was Catholic and perhaps I’m biased but I like theirs better – other than the wafer thing). What other reason is there for me (or others) to go? Why bother?
Personal reasons why or what we’re being told are the reasons we should come back? Vaccinations do not stop the transmission of Covid. I really think this is all just gearing us up for the nightmare of digital ID and tracking via smartphones. I am a lot happier with our chapel than a lot of other places out there. We make a lot more effort than most places.
For me: 1) I do like social events. I think I would have liked it if our ward did a picnic for memorial day. One of the things that “old timer” has said over the years is that some of those same things that annoy us about the church, really are needed by another segment of the church population.
2) Community. I have dabbled in several different Christian churches over the years. Some of them have children’s and youth programs that put the LDS experience to shame. I have observed that replicating a tight-knit community is not an easy task. I think the SDA church comes the closest. I theorize that the higher demand churches have an easier time at the community strength. Also churches with unique beliefs or practices tend to stand out from the general population and perhaps stand closer together for mutual social survival.
3) Positive role models and influences. Now that my children are teenagers (what the world calls young adults), I am aware of the many very troubled peers that my children come to know and observe through school etc. Being a teen can be very hard and some of those teens are modeling behaviors that are not very helpful. We do talk with our children about suicide, eating disorders, cutting, premarital sex and teenage pregnancy, etc. I believe that my children are very smart and well adjusted and can choose the “better path” when it is put before them. I also believe that it is much easier to choose the better path when a) you have individuals that model what that path looks like in practice and b) those same individuals can provide some social support for those lifestyle choices. IOW, the desire to fit in to the group is REALLY strong at this age. The LDS church can give my kids a different group to follow.
Roy has stated this idea much more succinctly than I can state it (and more diplomatically) but in my own words; where the church lacks in pragmatic reasons for people to attend it makes up in engaging a person’s sense of duty and obligation. A member has covenanted to attend meetings. It’s an obligation.
Various answers for various people:
1) If you don’t feel you’re getting anything out of it, shame on you. It’s selfish to want something out of it and/or the point isn’t to be entertained.
2) You get out of it what you put in.
3) Erase the guilt that comes from not meeting an obligation.
4) Social interaction for people that need social interactions.
5) Avoid people gossiping about why you aren’t showing up and prevent people from looking down on you because you aren’t showing up.
6) Renew covenants.
7) A return/retreat to the familiar.
The formula helps people feel the spirit.9) Connect with people that need/provide service.
Personally I can’t say that the church provides for any of my spiritual needs and it feels like the church would actively refuse any help that I could render, so we appear to be at an impasse. The only thing left is the obligation and the obligation doesn’t nourish the spirit.
SamBee wrote:
Vaccinations do not stop the transmission of Covid. I really think this is all just gearing us up for the nightmare of digital ID and tracking via smartphones.I am a lot happier with our chapel than a lot of other places out there. We make a lot more effort than most places.
My “lie” excuse is I’m following Centers for Disease Control guidelines. That’s not a total lie, as I do try to adhere to them. My workplace is on the list of places that are considered “crowded” under those guidelines and in crowded places even vaccinated people should continue to wear masks. It is required that I wear a mask at work unless I am alone in my office, which is about 75% of the time. The remaining ~25% I am rarely with more than one person and rarely for longer than about 10 minutes. If that’s crowded I think church is way more crowded – I’d be with more people, some masked and some not (and some the unmasked are also unvaccinated), for much longer periods of time. I think church is much more akin to buses or airplanes which the CDC also considers crowded. There are CDC guidelines for church to which at least locally we don’t adhere (that’s my backup excuse).
That said, the CDC also says that vaccinated people have an infinitesimally small chance of spreading COVID because the vaccine fights the virus so well that there’s not enough to spread. And even if a vaccinated person were to get infected, we won’t die or even be hospitalized. Also, all indications are that the current vaccines are effective against the current mutations. I believe all of this and I am comfortable going out in public without a mask but will mask up where it is still required. On the other hand, I wonder why if all of this is true there are requirements for vaccinated people to mask up anywhere.
FWIW I think in the beginning and for a long time the church did make more of an effort than most places. I think that is no longer true where I live.
Roy wrote:
For me:1) I do like social events. I think I would have liked it if our ward did a picnic for memorial day. One of the things that “old timer” has said over the years is that some of those same things that annoy us about the church, really are needed by another segment of the church population.
2) Community. I have dabbled in several different Christian churches over the years. Some of them have children’s and youth programs that put the LDS experience to shame. I have observed that replicating a tight-knit community is not an easy task. I think the SDA church comes the closest. I theorize that the higher demand churches have an easier time at the community strength. Also churches with unique beliefs or practices tend to stand out from the general population and perhaps stand closer together for mutual social survival.
3) Positive role models and influences. Now that my children are teenagers (what the world calls young adults), I am aware of the many very troubled peers that my children come to know and observe through school etc. Being a teen can be very hard and some of those teens are modeling behaviors that are not very helpful. We do talk with our children about suicide, eating disorders, cutting, premarital sex and teenage pregnancy, etc. I believe that my children are very smart and well adjusted and can choose the “better path” when it is put before them. I also believe that it is much easier to choose the better path when a) you have individuals that model what that path looks like in practice and b) those same individuals can provide some social support for those lifestyle choices. IOW, the desire to fit in to the group is REALLY strong at this age. The LDS church can give my kids a different group to follow.
I get that for some people the socialization part is very important and the main reason they attend. I think for some it’s the only reason. For some people the church is their whole life, socially and otherwise. That was probably mostly true for me when I was a YSA. So I get number 1, and I’m not saying others are or should question why (although I’m sure I’m not the only one).
For 2, this was also probably true for me pre-faith crisis. I have said here and elsewhere before that if you want to find out who your real friends are at church just stop going and you’ll see pretty quickly. I also always follow that up with how surprised you might be at how few there really are. While the church is my tribe for the most part, I am also not uncomfortable in other tribes. I’ve lived in my ward for over 30 years, so I know the people here. Frankly, and this also goes along with #1, I don’t care for most of them and more recently some of the few who were my friends have moved away. I can’t honestly say there’s anybody I want to hang out with or terrible miss but there are many I am happy to have had a break from.
Regarding #3, my children are grown and gone. I do agree that there were some positive role models for them at church but my ward has been in decline for a long, long time. The younger two of my children especially did not have any close friendships at church just because there weren’t any they related to in the few that were there. It’s not a ton different for our youth now. Of the three active YM, two graduate high school this month and magically become YSA, leaving the 14-year-old as the sole active YM. The YW are similar and have 4 active and also with an age disparity. One is a junior in high school (17) and the other 3 are all 11-13 (two of them are siblings). I said way too much there when all I really had to say is that ship has sailed for my family.
nibbler wrote:
Roy has stated this idea much more succinctly than I can state it (and more diplomatically) but in my own words; where the church lacks in pragmatic reasons for people to attend it makes up in engaging a person’s sense of duty and obligation.A member has covenanted to attend meetings. It’s an obligation.
Various answers for various people:
1) If you don’t feel you’re getting anything out of it, shame on you. It’s selfish to want something out of it and/or the point isn’t to be entertained.
2) You get out of it what you put in.
3) Erase the guilt that comes from not meeting an obligation.
4) Social interaction for people that need social interactions.
5) Avoid people gossiping about why you aren’t showing up and prevent people from looking down on you because you aren’t showing up.
6) Renew covenants.
7) A return/retreat to the familiar.
The formula helps people feel the spirit.9) Connect with people that need/provide service.
Personally I can’t say that the church provides for any of my spiritual needs and it feels like the church would actively refuse any help that I could render, so we appear to be at an impasse. The only thing left is the obligation and the obligation doesn’t nourish the spirit.
Upfront please understand I am not dismissing anyone’s input and I do appreciate it. I think what all of you have said works for some, maybe even most, people. Maybe it’s just the power of the Dark Side affecting me at the moment (and please do not misconstrue that as blaming Satan, they’re totally separate myths).
I do get what you’re saying and doctrinally not attending Mass is a sin in Catholicism – but not one most people care about outside the very most stalwart. Doctrinally meeting attendance is not an obligation in Mormonism, but there are policies (a TR question) and Mormon Pharisees who would seem to make it so. 1 & 2 are Jedi mind tricks – they only work on the weak minded (which I apparently am not).
3, I see how my question could could be construed as a symptom of guilt. Maybe it is. I can’t say that I feel guilty and that may be because part of my rebuilding faith had to do with letting go of unreal guilt and fear. I don’t think I have to repent of feeling the way I do (I don’t think we ever have to repent of feelings). I think my real question is why do something that I see as pointless when I have other options, some of which could be more uplifting and enlightening? I do think I would get more out of the Methodist or Presbyterian sermons that are within walking distance of my house than I have been getting at the true church of late – at least God and the Savior would get more than a passing mention. Heck I could get better on TV or simply by doing my own scripture study at home.
4 is covered in a previous post,and I don’t care about 5.
For 6 I do get meaning from the Sacrament of the Lord’s Supper, but “renewing covenants” is not included in that meaning. I have also already stated that I can get the same meaning from other church’s rites and I’m particularly fond of the the Catholic rite (which is similar in other high churches).
There might be something to 7, but if so why am I questioning? I’m a bit of a homebody, maybe even a hermit – that’s the familiarity I like.
“The formula helps people feel the spirit.” Oh that such were true. Were it the case I don’t think I’d be asking why.
Lastly, I’m all for meaningful service – most of which I find outside the church. I’m not in need of receiving service and am much more able and inclined to provide service. I have actually given a good amount of thought to what service I might provide when I retire (6 months to 3 years from now) and I have a lot of ideas. None of them include the church, but if there were meaningful opportunities there I would do so. There hasn’t been anything in a long time in my ward and that pre-dates COVID by years. (Example: there was a “service project” a couple months ago – photographing gravestones in a local cemetery for the billion graves project. Totally meaningless to me. And how the heck is that even “service?”)
DarkJedi wrote:
Upfront please understand I am not dismissing anyone’s input and I do appreciate it. I think what all of you have said works for some, maybe even most, people. Maybe it’s just the power of the Dark Side affecting me at the moment (and please do not misconstrue that as blaming Satan, they’re totally separate myths).
No worries. My list was a combination of things I’ve heard over the years and reasons that I project onto people.
But you touch on an issue I feel the church desperately needs to address, being relevant in people’s lives.
Again, projecting, but I think some percentage of people only attend church because you gotta do what you gotta do or because of a genuine belief that god says this is the way it’s supposed to work so you have to do what it takes to make it work.
Church is just one of many vehicles to for the gospel. If everything is within walking distance and there’s good public transport some may question why bother with the expense and upkeep for a car? In other situations a car is vital. We hit a snag at church because it’s presented as one size fits all. The car is required, even for big city living where car ownership is more burden than blessing, and people will hassle until you get one.
Tangent:
Some covid privileges have already been taken away in my area. No more blessing the sacrament in our homes. Other privileges will shortly be taken away, streamed sacrament. It’s a shame really, in an effort to corral people physically (guessing so they can be more easily measured), they’re taking away things that engaged people that otherwise wouldn’t be engaged, like people that would watch a streamed service or lesson but wouldn’t attend in person (even pre-covid). Take away the streamed services and those types will go back to nothing… but it’s a sacrifice that leaders are more than willing to make. Gotta get back to doing things the one acceptable way.
I stumbled across this Wheat & Tares post and thought it somewhat relevant. https://wheatandtares.org/2021/05/25/whats-fun-got-to-do-with-it/ ” class=”bbcode_url”> https://wheatandtares.org/2021/05/25/whats-fun-got-to-do-with-it/ Quote:The “all this” I’m referring to is the relentless search for an explanation of why slow growth is affecting the Church, of why people both in and out of the Church seem to be losing interest. An enemy hath done this: who might it be? But more broadly, think about the reactions that senior leaders and the whole bureaucratic Mormon machine have to the now-so-evident problem. It seems to be changing the whole tone of the Church program. More pleas from local missionaries to help find someone to teach. More tone deaf lessons on faith crisis and how not to be offended when someone says or does or teaches something offensive. More Conference talks titled, “God Loves You, So Pay Your Tithing and Go to Your Meetings, All of Them.”
Quote:Not fun anymore? I’m sure someone will comment that Church isn’t supposed to be fun, but it at least has to be interesting enough that people will come back for more. The Church needs repeat customers. I had some hope for Sunday School when Pres. Uchtdorf got promoted downward to, among other assignments, oversee Curriculum. As for Uchtdorf, the phrase “was never heard from again” almost fits. As for the curriculum … well, I’m hard pressed to see anything that changed for the better. The best teachers ignore the manual and just teach good stuff. The best students ignore the manual and just read scriptures and informed commentary.
Yesterday without prior notice it was announced at the beginning of SM that the congregation would begin singing the hymns effective then. Masks still encouraged but not required. The first testimony after the bishop was an old stalwart (maskless) who is very hard of hearing started out by saying it’s hard to hear with masks on and people don’t talk loud enough when they’re up there and to please speak up so she could hear (that’s the Reader’s Digest version). The cleaning of the podium/mic between speakers has apparently gone out the window as well. I was watching on Zoom (and truth is it wasn’t the worst F&TM ever, in fact it was one of the better in our ward except for the 2 who overstayed their welcome at the mic) so it was no skin off my nose. Then last evening we got an email reminder about next Saturday’s stake priesthood meeting with a change – previously it was announced it would be broadcast but now live attendance in encouraged and there will be no broadcast. Going with the excuse I have been using, that will be much worse than being on an airplane or bus. And there will be the usual ice cream floats to follow. When there was a Zoom option I considered virtual attendance because there can be some more uplifting things in those meetings. I will not go in person where it’s more crowded than a bus/plane and where masks are only encouraged.
We were bound to return to business as usual at some point. That said, maskless singing right now is a little too soon for me; which is something that’s currently happening in my area. The quantities of people showing up and the environment also make things uncomfortable for me. Leaders that are interested in getting butts back in seats would do well to remember that they are making leery people like me delay their return by that much more every time they make accommodations for people that didn’t like the added precautions. I guess their calculus says that more people will come back in the absence of added restrictions and precautions. Considering the attitudes I’ve witnessed over the last 16 months, their calculus may be correct.
Pretending covid doesn’t exist for a moment… I get that it’s extra effort but you’d think they’d want to do something other than return to
exactlythe way things were before. Why not continue streamed services? Maybe people that wouldn’t otherwise attend would watch a streamed service. What’s more important, measuring attendance and seeing who the faithful are or getting the message out to people? I get that not every ward out there has the capacity to pull of streamed services.
Stake priesthood meetings may be a whole other animal. Once upon a time the church would not stream the now defunct priesthood session of general conference. My best guess is that they did it to create conditions where the PH body had to meet in person. Regardless, I don’t think those old rules would apply to stake PH meetings in 2021. The church started streaming general PH sessions in 2013 so it’s been kosher for almost 8 years.
nibbler wrote:
Leaders that are interested in getting butts back in seats would do well to remember that they are making leery people like me delay their return by that much more every time they make accommodations for people that didn’t like the added precautions. I guess their calculus says that more people will come back in the absence of added restrictions and precautions. Considering the attitudes I’ve witnessed over the last 16 months, their calculus may be correct.
My local observation has been similar. I was never a student of calculus (math is not my strong point) but I can’t say the church has historically been good at it either – they keep doing the same thing expecting a different result (while the pews continue to empty and become more and more void of Millennials).Quote:Stake priesthood meetings may be a whole other animal. Once upon a time the church would not stream the now defunct priesthood session of general conference. My best guess is that they did it to create conditions where the PH body had to meet in person. Regardless, I don’t think those old rules would apply to stake PH meetings in 2021. The church started streaming general PH sessions in 2013 so it’s been kosher for almost 8 years.
Our stake has had the capability to broadcast for many years, and does so. Zoom itself is a newer phenomenon, but they used to use the church system.Not getting as much press as the other GC announcement, it was also announced October GC will also have no live audience. It’s 4 months away and at a time when most are probably thinking COVID will be history. It’s interesting (to me) these announcement came a day apart. “Let’s go all out and fill the chapel and have ice cream floats next week” vs “Lets not gather in the Conference Center for the fourth time in a row 4 months from now.” The cheeky side of me says “Maybe the prophet knows something we don’t.” The analytical side of me says it doesn’t add up (but as I said, math is not my strength).
DarkJedi wrote:
I stumbled across this Wheat & Tares post and thought it somewhat relevant.https://wheatandtares.org/2021/05/25/whats-fun-got-to-do-with-it/ ” class=”bbcode_url”> https://wheatandtares.org/2021/05/25/whats-fun-got-to-do-with-it/ I agree with much of what is written in the Blog.
My takeaway is 1) to find your own way to do it and 2) to find your own reason for why you do it.
I would not be able to do all or nothing church. If this was the choice then I would choose the nothing. I have remained connected to the LDS church in my own way. My own way does not include attending church regularly or paying tithing (and therefore holding a TR). It does include holding a calling that I can do during the mid-week, attending church at least partially when I am able, attending and supporting ward activities, supporting my children in attending church programs that interest them, performing annual father’s blessings, blessings of comfort and healing, and other ordinances (baptism, confirmation, & ordination) that I may be asked to perform for my family from time to time. I also consider my participation here at StayLDS as part of how I choose to participate and remain connected to the church.
I have recently begun taking my son to the Wednesday night youth group activities of a local Methodist church. My son had been complaining about the ward YM activities and not wanting to attend. In a nutshell the YM leaders alternated between having very poor and unengaging activities and then blaming the boys for not taking a more active role in planning the activities. This is a very specific example where we recognized a need that was not being met within the church program and we gave ourselves permission to go outside of the church program to meet that need.
My family are still Mormons but part of how we do Mormonism includes looking outside of Mormonism for supplemental resources/experiences. I do have sufficient motivating reasons for me to continue to do Mormonism in this way. I would probably not have sufficient motivating reasons to compel me to do Mormonism in a more traditional way and to attempt to force a more traditional model/participation expectation would probably not prove to be sustainable for me.
I hear you! I have been struggling with the same thing. Why?!? I had come to an uneasy peace with a decision to go back in person in a couple of weeks when more local restrictions are being lifted. But then I met with someone about my calling, and I felt myself having a really visceral “flee/freeze” response right there in the meeting as they shared what the plan was. I am to play the same 9 songs over and over in primary until the kids learn them for the primary program (which they are apparently planning on happening). And they picked 2 songs that I have a really hard time with due to messages that I don’t agree with. Even COVID/singing concerns aside, if I go back and do this then I don’t feel like I am living in my integrity, as my own children will be regurgitating those songs over and over as I give implicit agreement to what (for me) have been harmful messages as I play them. In the meeting I’m afraid I came off as either a bit of an idiot and/or too negative, already burning bridges. When the (kind, dedicated, well intentioned, super orthodox) sister left, I found myself cold, sweaty, and literally shaking. (It was 90 degrees outside). I feel like the goal once second hour is reinitiated for kids should be to help them feel safe, seen, and to experience the spirit. Not to rote-ly rehearse for a program that very few of the kids even like doing. But as the pianist my thoughts rarely have mattered. They may as well use a computer accompaniment. This is not the kind of “service” I want to do. I could try to speak up and change the songs at least, but if I do that, I think I just become more of a pariah.
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